The University of Life
The University of Life podcast has become my personal collection of fascinating learnings from the people I meet and experiences I have as I explore life and journey deeper in to the space of business mentoring & life coaching.
The University of Life
The University of Life & James Xander
Have you ever wondered if psychedelics could be more than just a fleeting experience? In this episode I explore how these substances can act as catalysts for self-discovery and personal growth.
James Xander is an expert in the field, guiding people in this space and hosting entrepreneurial meet ups for entrepreneurs credit psychedelics for driving innovation and creativity.
James and I discuss our journeys of self-discovery through psychedelic experiences and explore how these trips reveal the masks we wear and the impact they have on our true identities.
We reflect on the disruptive yet liberating process of uncovering our authentic selves, sharing stories and insights that highlight the importance of embracing external disruptions to achieve internal tranquility.
We also guide you through the essential elements of preparing for and experiencing a psychedelic journey. From setting intentions to creating a safe environment, we cover it all.
We also delve into the broader societal implications of psychedelics, discussing their potential to de-hypnotize individuals from societal influences and empower them to pursue their authentic dreams.
Whether you're curious about psychedelics or looking for new paths to personal growth, this episode offers valuable insights and practical advice.
If ever you'd like to connect, please don't hesitate to connect via my website www.jamiewhite.com.
I am always open to feedback, reflections, guest / subject recommendations and anything else that might come up.
Thank you for listening, Jamie x
So this interview has me really excited. I feel a little bit like I'm coming out of the closet, but if anyone's followed me for some time, they would know I have a keen interest in psychedelics and when some people think about psychedelics I think they think it's distractive, it's escapist. It's distractive, it's escapist, and for me, I would say it's the complete opposite. And I have found psychedelics to be this incredible tool to connect in with myself in a deeper capacity and really find wisdom within me that I, geez, I had no idea was there. Find wisdom within me that I, geez, I had no idea was there. So I think I have a real treat for you today with this interview. I'm here with James. How do I pronounce your second name, by the way?
Speaker 2:James Zander.
Speaker 1:Lovely, lovely, and I'm here in Bali at the moment and I was slowly but surely meeting these really interesting independent entrepreneurial types. That's something I love doing, just making kind of an honest effort every week to meet somebody new. And anyway, I came across a couple of really interesting entrepreneurs who all suggested I meet this man, James, and I was like that's interesting, when you know. When three or four people introduced the same person and they said do you know what he runs this really interesting community, I was like, Ooh, tell me more. And he's like, well, it's a meetup for entrepreneurs, Um, but it's for entrepreneurs that credit some of their edge and their expertise to their use of psychedelics. And my eyes lit up. Is that fair to say, James?
Speaker 2:That's a great description of it.
Speaker 1:Lovely. So I feel like I'm almost coming out of the closet a little bit in sharing this interview because for me I would say, psychedelics have given me an edge and taken me deeper into myself and truer as well in terms of how I live. But it's a hard conversation to have because there's so many opinions about psychedelics and so many people would see them as escapist. So in chatting with you I'm like, yeah, I'm excited to kind of explore this whole space. Would you have kind of thought similarly as well in terms of, like, the divisive perspective with regards to psychedelics?
Speaker 2:I don't experience it anymore and I think it's because I'm embodied in what I do. I'm embodied in my feelings about them. You know, when you first start doing something and you share it with the world, you get criticism because you're not fully embodied in it yet. But if, let's say, you've been doing something for 10 years, someone comes up to you and they have a problem with how you're doing something. It just bounces off of you because they have no idea on the journey you went on for 10 years. So I see this as the same way that maybe someone who is fresh to psychedelics. They're sort of afraid of what their friends might think or what their parents might think or what their family might think. But when you live it and you breathe it and you understand deep down how important these tools are for your own consciousness, for your own personal growth, then someone's criticism almost feels a little bit amusing. You know, like if someone comes up to you and says, oh, these things, they scramble your brain, have you taken them? No, but I've heard this on CNBC.
Speaker 1:You know, it's like that's a really interesting one because there is so much perspective on psychedelics from so many that haven't taken them, are afraid to take them and have read so much fear-inducing stuff about them. But I have never had an experience that I could say was in any way negative. That didn't serve me, that's a good caveat.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would. I would own exactly what you just shared there. That, like the, the most critique I've got is from people with no experience whatsoever and I find that funny and I actually think what you shared is actually really really true in life as a whole, that, like for things that we haven't fully owned, we get a lot of critique and we we actually we let that in and we let it rattle us a little bit. But when we own something, when we've kind of committed to it and we're like look, this is me, this is what I do, this is what I'm interested in, when somebody says anything to the negative, you don't really feel it anymore. You just kind of recognize, you have your tribe and then others, others know, and that's fine, fair.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and if I can add a fun little tangent here. So I recently released this guided meditation and it's all about the wealth frequency and upgrading your wealth frequency, and I send it out to my newsletter and within the span of like a couple minutes, I get two different responses, two different emails from one person. James, this is like the most disgusting email I've received, like you should take a look at your ego and your greed. This is someone who has not bought the meditation, has no idea what the audio is about. They've just read the promotional marketing message. Second email from someone who bought it gosh, this is amazing. Is there more where this is coming from? It's like the polarity and the fact that these two feedbacks came within like a couple minutes.
Speaker 1:It was fascinating to see yeah, hammering that point in again, I think the most opinion comes from those with the littlest experience. And um, it's actually quite true of life. What's that quote around like? The more you know, the more you realize there is to know, and so the less opinionated you are, the less uh I think it was mark twain the more you know, the more you know that how much you don't know yeah how much bigger.
Speaker 2:The circle of the unfamiliar on the edge becomes bigger as your knowledge grows.
Speaker 1:And so the more understanding of difference you become you have, whereas the less you know, the more you actually think you know and the more opinionated you are. And so it's actually almost quite a quick little like summary of like, yeah, those that are opinionated, those that are really really projecting their ideas on others, generally speaking, aren't um, I suppose haven't been exposed to so much Um like, when I reflect on my own personal journey and actually, yeah, if I take that back personally, what I find is that if I reflect back on a couple of years ago, when I was most opinionated, I can really recognize right now that that was when I was most naive and so many of the ideas that I thought were like these are fundamental ideas I've actually recognized they're like no, most of the thoughts and the beliefs that I had are actually completely wrong.
Speaker 2:Do you notice, as you get more wiser and older and more mature, you become more nuanced about your opinions. You stop saying these ultimatums of black and white and you kind of pause for a bit and you're like, actually I don't know about this or there could be more layers to this than I initially thought.
Speaker 1:You know, there's a kind of a, a couple of words that come at the end of my sentences. Now I'm like I'm this for now.
Speaker 1:We'll see what we'll see what the case is in a couple of months time. I love that, whereas, like, yeah, I was very full of these big pillar like statements of like this is me, this is who I am, this is what I do a few years ago and I'm trying to hold back giggles at myself, because the fact is, we're fluid, evolving beings, which is kind of an interesting one. When you think of society now, it's all about people defining themselves, what gender they are, what sexuality they are and all sorts, and again, I would think that these aren't static things. If we are really pushing ourselves into life and leaning into our edges, those definitions evolve. Likewise, binding with certain beliefs and ideas. We should actually start trying to just build that from within and build that from yeah, from a place that doesn't almost imprison us in an ideology but instead actually liberates us from it and allows us to be experiences of what Steve Pavlino once said.
Speaker 2:He said who I am right now does not have to correspond to who I was five minutes ago, or does not have to match the expectations of me five minutes ago. I'm paraphrasing it, but it was such a great reminder of how much the past holds us to the image that we're supposed to be, of how we were, holds us to the image that we're supposed to be of how we were, and I've noticed in my life. The biggest growth I've had in my life, or the biggest moments of revelation, came when I broke away from my so-called past authentic self and moved into a new version of me, and then that became the new authentic self.
Speaker 1:Well, can we explore your journey? Because I am fascinated with yeah, I'm fascinated with people's lives, people's life experiences that bring them to where they are right now. And so, like for you, right now, bringing together a community of entrepreneurs, helping them really open up and share their experiences, not just in business and not just with all the kind of challenges that come with that, but also into their kind of their more magical world of like journeying into psychedelics and taking knowledge and wisdom from that and applying that to their lives, like that's. That's, for a lot of people, really edgy territory For me, something that I have held dear but also held quite sacred. So, like, when I came across you, I was like, oh, wow, that like I actually have my own community of entrepreneurs. We all do this quite privately, but then I was like, oh, you're doing this publicly. That's amazing. So I'm really curious how did you end up doing what you're doing now? Like what's? If you were kind of thinking of, like the journey to where you are right now, what does that look like?
Speaker 2:Like a roller coaster. There's been so many moments that have led me to where I am now, but I would say truly discovering psychedelics was a huge piece of it.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that sets me up perfectly for the. Give me the James before, the James almost immediately after.
Speaker 2:So the James immediately after experiencing. Let me tell the story of my first psychedelic experience, because I think that'll paint a great picture. And even before that, the story of the first shift of consciousness I experienced was through a wheat edible that my friend gave me, introduced me to, and so that's not even a psychedelic, but my friend Sky. He comes over one day, he brings in this tiny wheat edible and he knew I was curious to explore these realms, but I was super nervous, I had no idea what I was doing. And he's like this this will open the gates a little bit for you and what this thc edible did was I could sense I was james, but more it was like in 20 minutes, while it kicked in, reality shifted and it was still the same reality, still Vancouver. We were walking down a little path in a park, but it was different. And then a month later, my friend another friend. We went camping and he brought some LSD and that was my first proper psychedelic experience, some LSD, and that was my first proper psychedelic experience.
Speaker 2:And again the same experience, but even more amplified. Where? Same reality. I'm still me. I'm not seeing any dragons or anything crazy that you might see in a cartoon about psychedelics, but there's so many layers. I'm seeing frequency. I'm seeing the layers of my ego being deconstructed. While I look in the reflection of a puddle, it there's just more. And that experience of more which I always intuitively felt was there, like since I was a kid, I'm like there has to be more to this reality. There has to be more than just rocks and trees and skyscrapers, but I had no proof of it. It's like I felt the magic permeating through this reality, through this hologram, but I had no proof of it. And I'm like I got to see a UFO or I want an out of body experience. I want some proof. And the proof came to me years and years later, in the form of psychedelics.
Speaker 1:Okay, let me just take you back to your. I'm looking at a puddle and seeing the layers of my ego almost like wash away. What does that actually look like? I'm kind of thinking like if I looked in a puddle and if I was experiencing that, it's like like I used to be a nightclub mother and thought I was super cool. And it's like I see that and then I see actually how silly I was. And then I see you know me in some of my like beliefs in terms of this is how you should look after yourself and this is how you're healthy. And it's like see the bullshit in that. And I, as I'm looking deeper and looking deeper, I actually just recognize, like the me as almost a kid and I see me as like a me and my innocence and me and my silliness Is and I see me as like a me and my innocence and me and my silliness is that kind of what that is.
Speaker 2:It's exactly that. I was looking, so we were camping in the woods. It was the perfect place to do LSD perfect place for the first time. I was so blessed it was raining slightly, like the tiniest bit, so everything was moody and um, and there was these puddles and I I looked at the puddle and what I saw was I saw my reflection, but on the LSD I could just see that the masks I was wearing on top of me for protection or for defense or for feeling safe, I could see that very clearly. They were masks.
Speaker 1:Okay. Okay, I get that completely Because I just don't want to go through the personality bashing or the slagging or stuff, and I recognize the person I show up with, sometimes with certain family members, because I just don't want to get into drama, yeah. So I put up these layers or these barriers, sometimes just for safety and protection, but in actual fact they might serve in those moments, but unfortunately they don't allow a deeper level of connection. They block off a level of understanding. I mean, actually, I think really knock my confidence as well, because if I'm practicing being somebody else or putting up this shield the whole time, it's holding me back from being my true self and it's holding me back from allowing the world to recognize me in my true self as well.
Speaker 2:Right, Exactly Well, this is why we admire the great artists or the pop stars or the great actors of the world, is because in their starness, they're able to fully be themselves and be seen by millions of people and not have that move them from their center yeah whereas most people, when they get up to perform or they're on stage or they have a mic in front of them, they they're not able to hold that center.
Speaker 2:They start thinking of what someone else is judging them or seeing them as and they start conforming their way to how they want to be perceived rather than just being them. And what the whole? If I could summarize my whole journey of psychedelics from 2018 until now, of psychedelics from 2018 until now, it's been this journey of unlayering, removing these layers bit by bit, to get more of of the truth of myself and to allow others to see more of that truth okay.
Speaker 1:So when I went for like the give me the book before and the after, essentially what I'm hearing is like, look, I was kind of like so many kind of people find themselves in just a big load of bullshit, basically. And the future, from that leading you to the present, has just you being really figuring out your true self and being that true self and coming to that point, layer by layer. Um, I always think there's a lovely like, there's all these lovely lines, I think, that start to flow through me, but I really think, like, what life is all about is finding yourself, being yourself, and and that's one of those lines that you hear and it's like what does that mean? But the more you, more I come to live, the more I actually really believe like, like to find yourself is quite a journey. It takes a lot of experience to figure out what you like and what you don't like and then to be who you are.
Speaker 1:That is so much Like there's so many of us and for make this personal, like there has been so much in me in the past that, like so many desires, so many ideas that I have are wants in terms of how to live, that I just was like oh no, god, no, I couldn't bring that into the world, I'd be afraid what people would say, I'd be afraid of what would come from that, and I buried them. But little by little, as I've like I suppose, progressed, I've just built confidence to bring that to the surface, to bring that into my world. And it is disruptive. I've said goodbye to lots of friends, I've had lots of awkward conversations with family, friends and all of that, but I've felt much greater ease, the disruption sets you free.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the disruption sets you free.
Speaker 2:It has to happen because of the I'm not going to put words in your mouth, but of the lies that we've told about who we are, in a way, or the image we've presented and when the truth comes out of actually this is also a part of me the disruption happens and it's a beautiful disruption to open the way for more of that truth to come through and the right people fall away and the right people come into your reality to support that there's a mind body medicine specialist who gave a line that has stuck with me since on this podcast, and it's if you keep the peace on the outside, you start a war on the inside.
Speaker 1:Oh yes, but if you're happy to start wars on the outside, you foster peace on the inside.
Speaker 2:Beautiful, really really beautiful.
Speaker 1:I love that. So I I suppose now I'm kind of fast forwarding you and apologies, apologies, but I'm I'm really curious of, like when you're sitting in your circles of entrepreneurial types and, and, and they're saying, yeah, psychedelics are incredible for me, in, in, in terms of bringing an edge and a compliment to not just how I show up personally, but how I do business as well, like, what does that actually look like? Because, yeah, there's so much I have come in contact with, so much fear and so much scrutiny and so much anxiety around psychedelics, psychedelics, and, and people would say all the more when it comes to their careers, and here's a belief that turns out on its head that it's like no, it actually could be the missing, missing element that could help you get to the next level.
Speaker 2:So I see it in two ways. In most of the people that I'm around, they either do these deep trips that unlayer more of the truth that allows them to make better decisions in business, better decisions in relationships, more aligned decisions in life, and or they microdose. So they take these tiny, tiny doses of psilocybin and it just gives them that bit of an edge more creativity, more flow, more access to intuition. Yeah, so one of those two or they combine them. For me personally, I have been exploring microdosing a bit more these days, but in general, I love going deep. I love doing one deep trip a month and just going way, way, way deep into my soul, getting all the homework downloads that I need and then spending the rest of the month integrating those lessons.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so my first experience of doing Psycheducks. I was blessed I had this group of entrepreneurial friends who were all very inspired from hearing rumors of this taking place with some of the top CEOs in San Fran. I remember we were like, what are they doing? We were all into biohacking at the time and this was like the edgy step forward for us. It was like you know, they're all doing all these biohacks, but they're also talking about this. So we talked about it for months because we were nervous and we were anxious, but we were like we'll all do it together, four of us, all kind of in business for ourselves, and we found this beautiful space.
Speaker 1:We, we, actually we all, we all were so conscious of how to create the space. We were like let's make it really color neutral, let's take down any any like any artwork that might be distractive. So it's a really beautiful neutral environment. Let's light candles. We curated a playlist, we got eye masks and and we did exactly this as well. We didn't microdose, we took quite a big dose. The idea was that it was. We were just curious. So let's see what happened, and for me it was the most. It was such a.
Speaker 1:In reflection, it was probably one of the most beautiful experiences of my life, to be like there with four friends, adventuring, um, but like one of us, one of us led us through a little bretwith work exercise to kind of calm us all together.
Speaker 1:Another kind of talked about intentions and like opened the, opened the forum for us to discuss fears and and also kind of like ideas of what it might be, when none of us really knew what it was going to be. But it was so nice anyway. Then at a certain point we, we, one of my friends was almost like a bloody chemist. He whipped, he had grown mushrooms and then made them into these beautiful chocolate truffles and so so anyway, we took them, put our eye masks on and and laid down and for me, what just blew my mind was it was like my you know, when you close your eyes and you don't really see much. But it was like it was like kind of almost tuning in a TV that suddenly that space that is normally, normally just looks like static, started to almost tune in. That's it Exactly. And I like I suddenly I was remembering my dreams and I was like this is amazing.
Speaker 1:That was the dream I had the night before, and that was the night, the dream I had before, and I could see my dreams really clearly and I was like, oh, there's a message here. How have I not understood that? And then suddenly I could remember memories, but not just like you know how we kind of have a blurry memory. It was like I was literally taking a videotape in and putting it and I could rewind it. I could bring myself right into the room, I could look around in that room. I could remember like the smell in the air, the touch, if perhaps I was touching somebody or something like that. It was so precise and that shook me. I was like, wow, I have access to my dreams. I have access to my memory at a capacity I just didn't know was there. I just didn't know was there. And then then the strangest thing happened. I like it's like I was on a swivel chair and I swiveled around and I was at a board table with, like all these people which for now I would see as my guides, oh, wow, yes, are my ancestors, and they were like there's a wanted me to put on the Jamie voice. But no, it was like Jamie, you are way too distracted with your outside world and you have no idea the power and capacity that you have in here in your internal world. Can we encourage you to stop getting so, stop being so concerned of what the outside world thinks and wants of you and to journey deeper into yourself, because we promise you that if you go deeper into yourself and start honoring yourself, you're going to live on a whole different level. And you talked about a mission and it kind of inspired this thought. It was like so we want you to do this, this, this and this. And it wasn't like that was a third party. It genuinely felt like it was an internal part of me saying this is what we need to do, right, so you have been doing what you think you need to do based on what everybody else is saying out there. Here's what we should be doing from a really deep internal place, right. And I left and at that moment it was like you've got your message. Now just enjoy the joy of your imagination and the pleasure that your body can it can experience. And it was amazing.
Speaker 1:I was taking on this like this unbelievable imaginative, like a symphony of just like oh my God, this is so creative. This is so beautiful, this is so entertaining, let's say, whilst at the same time, my body was experiencing what I would could only describe as full body orgasms. I was like this is amazing. And when I came out of it I was like I have the capacity to remember my dreams, go back through my memories like a vault tune into a part of myself that is like filter, free and uninfluenced by external perspective. It's like my truest voice. I can experience pleasure at a level I just never knew. And, oh my God, my imagination is better than any movie, any TV show. And it shook me. It shook me for weeks actually, because I was like I didn't know any of this was in there. This is amazing. And so began my mission.
Speaker 1:Now I'm kind of looking at you. I'm like, am I crazy? Now I'm kind of looking at you and I'm like, am I crazy?
Speaker 2:I love this. No, I'm loving this share. It goes to what one of my favorite authors talks about, Neville Goddard. His whole body of work is about the imagination and Neville believes that the imagination is the true reality and this reality is a shadow world filtering from the imagination. So everything you is created in this 40 realm and we're just tuning in to the frequency of which timeline we're on okay, I I'm now at the point where I want ask two questions.
Speaker 1:The first is like that was my experience and like you were, like you've got an online curated playlist to compliment psychedelics. You've got an online checklist in terms of like, here are the things to do to bring about the best journey, and, like I, just did what I knew at the time.
Speaker 2:And you did beautifully.
Speaker 1:Okay, thank you. Well, my first question is I really want to ask you could you tell me more about if somebody say is listening on, and if somebody is curious, it's like, okay, well, caution. And here are the things one should be conscious of if they want to get the most out of the journey.
Speaker 2:A hundred percent. So if it's someone's first time, I do recommend a lower dose than usual because you want to get acquainted with the plant medicine. Almost like going on a first date You're just meeting up for a coffee, you're not going full on deep yet. That would be my recommendation. Be careful with the dosage. If you're not experienced, the environment is key, of course. Dosage if you're not experienced, the environment is key, of course. So you have to make sure you're tripping in the most safe, comfortable environment. For most people that would be their home, an environment where there's no unintended factors or unreliable variables coming into play. So even though tripping outside can be amazing, if you're in a park and there's a ton of people around, that's not so amazing. So I would recommend everyone trip at home in a safe location where you're comfortable and intention is the most key thing. I'm doing this as a student and I'm coming into this experience with respect and with humbleness will go a long way in the trip, because you will be humbled if you don't go into it with respect.
Speaker 2:So intention, surrender, right. So bad trips. The way I describe why bad trips happen is purely and almost entirely because of resistance. If someone is resisting what they're feeling on the inside, or resisting something external rather than flowing with it, seeing how it might be a gift to them in the trip, seeing how they might surf the waves of energy, how they might surf the waves of energy, if you can surrender to the experience and trust that the mushrooms will guide you and lead you on a journey, you will have a very smooth trip. But if you try to control too much, resist the feelings, that's where the rough trips come in yeah so that would be the core, core essentials.
Speaker 2:There's a couple other things that I'm sure I can add to it. I have a, like you said, I have a mushroom trip checklist what's the domain I love?
Speaker 1:sorry, there's just such a blunt domain to it.
Speaker 2:What is it? It's mushroomchecklistcom. Perfect, easy to remember. So whenever you're tripping on mushrooms or really any psychedelic, pull up this pdf. It's completely free, and I dive into what to do before, what to do during the trip to not have that resistance, to be able to surrender, and what you can do after to integrate it into your life yeah, I, I I kind of think it's really interesting why people would do this stuff at a party or at a festival or stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Because for me, one of the key things you talked about was like you don't want to be in a park where people are going to come to you or anything, because if you're in a different world and someone comes up to you in a different world, it's it's it's highly, I would say, disorientating, it's dangerous as well.
Speaker 2:If they're doing it at a party or a festival, maybe a low dose, like just to get a little bit of a you know, creative spark in there of some sort or a little bit of visuals. But if you're doing a deep dose, that's the ceremony to me, you know, and also for me. I respect these plant medicines so much I would not really dream of doing them in any environment. That's not conducive to that deep, deep work that you're coming in to do there that's the interesting one for me.
Speaker 1:Like you, you've said respect sacred like this for me is a really personal thing yeah and it's, it's a, it's a really sacred personal thing which you want to treat like that.
Speaker 1:And so when you talked about pre-care, you talked about like create a safe space. When I kind of talked about it, I was like it was candlelit, it was intimate, it was undistracting, like taking down pictures, obviously not having tv on, being really conscious if you are listening to music, that there's no vocals in it that are going to almost like distract you, making sure like your phone is miles away from you, making sure there's nobody's going to be knocking on the door or anything. That this is you time and this is like your opportunity to connect in with yourself. But, yeah, the last thing you want is is somebody distracting you from that? Want is is somebody distracting you from that? Um, the the kind of the second question I had it and it was it was quite interesting was around the kind of the respect, because what I found was this mission came up in me and it was like Jamie, we, you know, really charging you to live more in tune to yourself and then.
Speaker 1:So how about you do this and this and this? What I found was that I followed that journey, but once or twice I didn't. And I went back into a psychedelic journey and it was like, why are you here? And none of the magic was there. That's what I found.
Speaker 2:You got a lecture.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I literally got a. Jamie. We, like you, came here. This was sacred, this was respectful. We told you what you needed you needed to do. You haven't done it. What are you doing back here? And, and it was like you shouldn't be here, and uh, and, and so this, this isn't going to be really enjoyable and and it wasn't it was.
Speaker 1:It was like there was none of the blissful imagination, there was none of was. Like there was none of the blissful imagination, there was none of the, the uh, there was none of the, the, the orgasmic feelings and and the um and the wisdom. I did get access to my memories and I did get kind of a uh, this is why we told you to do this and this is why you should go do it, go do it, but it it kind of felt almost a little bit awkward.
Speaker 2:It's like repeating a class that you failed in school, right? It's like it's a little bit awkward. You're there for a second semester and you shouldn't really be there if you did your work the first time.
Speaker 1:That was that blew my mind, though, because, like the first, the intelligence of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because the first time was all like wow, wonderful and amazing. And then I went to my mission and it was like right, you're back, we're going to do this and but but coming into that realm and I'd been awkward and been like what are you doing here? You've, you've worked to do I, I. That was very, very interesting for me. That was like oh, this isn't straightforward. There's a, there's an intellect here. They say a, a psychedelic journey will give you what you need yeah and and it was, it was.
Speaker 1:It was quite interesting to get a kick in the ass and I just I wanted to check in with you and be like, hey, is that normal or what are your kind of thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:so I've had both of these experiences where it's kind of an interesting um paradox, where, on the one hand, I've had what you describe, where if you go back too soon you're just gonna get to get a bit of a lecture, a bit of a cosmic slap. And when I did ayahuasca for the very first time and I had a really transformative journey and two weeks later there was this other shaman that was coming to Mexico, which is where I was at the time and my friend who I did the first ceremony with, he's like we got to go see this shaman. He's been trained for generations. He's like incredible and in my mind I was like, but it's only been two weeks and if I go back right now I'm probably going to be lectured so much because I still I have a year's worth of homework from this first ceremony and I told him this fear and he's like, if you go, with respect and just as a student, you always have more to learn.
Speaker 2:So I was more nervous going to the second ceremony two or three weeks later than that first ceremony, because I was like, oh my God, like I might be energetically kicked out of this ceremony for coming back so soon, but within the first 30 minutes, as we drank the ayah and it kicked in, I felt welcome back.
Speaker 2:I was like welcome back to the school, and I realized, okay, so if I come back with a lot of respect and intention and understanding that yes, I did it two weeks ago and I'm coming back, but not for fun or anything like that, but purely to learn. And it opened up this whole other level of lessons, completely different from the first ceremony. So this was also a different shaman, slightly different mixture of the ayahuasca, because each one is so unique. And so I realized in that moment okay, actually you can come back and be welcomed into this space, even if you still have integration to do from the first one, but you should not abuse that privilege. And that was a very specific situation where it was a different shaman. We really wanted to go see how he operates and and so I think I was granted permission to do that energetically so, so okay.
Speaker 1:So to somebody who hasn't experienced this realm, when they're hearing, and it's like granted permission, what? Because I think we, as humans, we almost have this power, this, yeah, this real idea of power, that, like for whatever we do, it serves us. Like if we have food, it serves us. Like if we have food it serves us If we go into a hotel, people serve us. It's so interesting to be like wait a second, respect teacher, like in something that you consume and something that you can grow or something. So it's just, it's a. I can imagine almost what you're sharing triggers quite a bit up in people. How would you, how would you kind of meet that?
Speaker 2:what you're sharing triggers quite a bit up in people. How would you kind of meet that? I would meet it by saying that what you're connecting with is not just a compound in a plant substance, it's an intelligence, it's a spirit the spirit of mushrooms, the spirit of ayahuasca, the spirit of San Pedro. These are all very different frequencies and different intelligences that are there to help and guide us. And the substance is more of a permission slip to experience the intelligence so that it makes sense in the 3D story and experience that. That would be pretty intense and terrifying for many people. So it's like we have this story of, like, take this mushroom and you will start to experience this thing.
Speaker 2:But I see it as a permission slip. It's a, it's a conduit to then open up to this intelligence. So you're interacting with this intelligence and it has also decisions that it can make of how much to teach you, how much to show you, yeah, how much, how gentle to be with you in the trip, or how much to teach you how much to show you, yeah, how much, how gentle to be with you in the trip, or how intense to be in the trip. And that's why I said the intention matters so much, because it's really your only way of communicating with this intelligence and saying hey, I'm here to learn. This is what I would like. I'm open to something else as well, because that's the surrender piece, but here is what I ideally would like. I'm open to something else as well, because that's the surrender piece, but here is what I ideally would like to receive from this, and then that intelligence can dance with you and can treat you like a partner, rather than something that you're using it for experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Is that too woo? No, it's not.
Speaker 1:There's a beautiful philosophy in it. Yeah, is that too? Woo me on my way and I remember she went off to LA and she went to a conscious eating retreat and I I thought it was quite interesting. One of the kinds of lines she came back from that she shared with me was, she said, jamie, one of the real principles of this program was that how we eat is a reflection of our self love and respect. And, uh, and I think that's quite true in terms of like, if you eat bad foods, generally speaking, they taste great in the short term and they don't really serve you in the longterm. A lot of the good foods, they might not be as exciting in the short term but they really stand to you in the long, long term.
Speaker 1:And I, I I take that I have there's this shared level of, let's say, respect that they really meet me where I'm at, if I'm respecting myself in terms of how I eat, in terms of my self-care, in terms of my training, in terms of actually just my relationships. Am I speaking my truths or am I kind of people pleasing In terms of my work? Similarly speaking, is it aligned and true to myself or am I kind of showing up in a compromised fashion because I want to work with certain people and have certain work. So, if I am being true to myself, the reflection in the journey is that I'm taken much deeper and the journey compliments me much more, whereas when I'm out of sorts and the fact is we're fluid beings Sometimes I, sometimes I look at myself and I'm like, wow, jay, amazing. Other times I'm disgraceful and I love. I actually love that because I I recognize in our world we're kind of there's such false perfectionism and professionalism put out there and the fact is just that's not how we are as a species we're. We're always up and down and chopping and changing and stuff.
Speaker 1:But I'm amazed at how, when I've been out of sorts, I've lost touch with my meditation practice, my, my yoga practice, my eating is a bit out of sorts. I've been just, for whatever reason, stressed and not really showing up in life how I would like. The experiences in those moments when I've dipped into psychedelic realms have been so unbelievably different. So when I am really grounded and caring for myself and loving for myself, there's no like blurriness in those journeys. There is. It is literally like Jamie, you're back in the chair, you're sitting around the table with your guides. You're having interactive conversations where you can really pull knowledge and that vision to my memory. It's all there and I can like switch the pleasure on if I want and and and switch the imagination on and everything. It's amazing.
Speaker 1:On the other side, when I'm out of sorts, there's sometimes purging. I find like literally I'm vomiting and the image I'm having is like Jamie, you have been eating crap and this is you getting it out of your system. Stop eating it. You have been eating crap and this is you getting it out of your system, stop eating it. Or like my body is.
Speaker 1:I feel all these knots in my body when perhaps I'm not training as well as I should or sensitively as I should, and my body starts aching, or if I'm not honoring myself in relationships. I'm seeing how that's hurting me at a soul level and it's emotionally tough and it's difficult. And that has been so interesting because I remember expressing that to somebody and they went oh, you had a bad trip. And I was like, oh no, oh no, no, that was the best kick in the ass I've ever had. That was the strong conversation I had been craving from my family or my friends, our loved ones, and I'm amazed at that in terms of how it meets you where you're at, or certainly for me, it has met me where I'm at and it has been just so different in so many different ways. But that contrast is just so obviously clear for me for me as well.
Speaker 2:I see psychedelics as truth tellers. So when you're already living in your truth and, like you said, you're aligned, you feel like you're. Everything is going properly in your mind, in your body, in your physical health, in your external environment. When you go on a psychedelic trip because you're already aligned, it doesn't have to do so much work to then bring you into alignment, so the trip can be quite smooth and can go deeper.
Speaker 2:When you're out of alignment you're not living your truth, you've been slacking off on what you should be doing. It's almost like there is this blocked energy or this knot, and you go into a psychedelic trip and the mushrooms start unraveling the knots and that can be uncomfortable and it can be painful and challenging, but they always bring you to that alignment. So for me at least, I find that by the end of the trip there is always a moment of catharsis, no matter how difficult the journey is in the beginning or how many knots the mushrooms have had to untangle because of my own distortions. When they're done with me, we are back in alignment, we're back in tune with the highest self, I think. If I had to summarize how, what psychedelics are really doing, I think from my perspective is they're aligning you to your higher self, your highest, most truest, most authentic self and they're clearing out the bullshit and they're clearing the cobwebs of the mind nonsense.
Speaker 1:so are you ready for the conspiracy conversations? Let's do it, okay? So I really believe that, like the illegalization of psychedelics and everything like that. So, first things first. I believe, as a life coach, I will be out of a job. If people were, were new, had to use psychedelics and we're using them more intentionally. Yeah, I would be just like what's the need for a coach? And I always say this to anybody that's working with me my belief is that no one could be a better coach to themselves than themselves. They just need to know how to connect in with themselves. And this is like. This is like here's the, here's the front door, here's the bell, just ring it in your front and center. It's. It's incredible in that regard.
Speaker 1:But what I'm amazed about in so many of the lessons is that it pulls me away from. It pulls me away from what I want to say is like societal bullshit and I'm being honest, being like a bit of a victim of marketing our behavioral norms and I'm being trapped really norms, and I'm being trapped really Like. I find with it like, let's say, a psychedelic perspective. I can very clearly see the foods that serve me and the ones that don't. I can very clearly see, like, how literally I can be hijacked by brands and how I can be true to myself. I can very quickly find how I can be hijacked actually by others. There's a great saying in the entrepreneurial world like if you don't uh, if you don't work on your dreams, you'll find yourself working for others. And like in my, with my perspective, I'm like, oh my God, that that's, that's like. That's, that's just, that's like. The 99%, most people, are running around serving everybody else but themselves.
Speaker 2:And if you don't have a plan, you're part of someone else's plan.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and and. So what I've been kind of amazed about is that it really helps me serve myself and clear out the agendas of others and and and the agendas, generally speaking, of, like, big companies, and that's a really like. With that knowledge, that perspective, I kind of stand back and I'm like, oh wait a second, this is really, really, really suspect in terms of, uh, an illegalization yeah.
Speaker 2:So what mushrooms are doing there is, they're de-hypnotizing you from external influences. When we come back to the 3d and I don't know how much of it is malicious and how much of it is incompetence, but there is a lot of hypnotizing going on. Even just like your own mom could phone you up and, in a way, what she's saying to you although her fear of something or her, um, her doubts of something that's also hypnotizing you in a certain way. So what mushrooms do is they just bring you right back to your core. What does your gut say about this? What does your heart say?
Speaker 2:and that's why you can make such amazing decisions right after a mushroom trip, because you're fully in alignment with your inner voice, not not the voices of your parents, your colleagues, your friends, who are all maybe well-meaning, but they don't have access to your guidance system.
Speaker 1:I have an image sorry, that's coming up, you know, when someone's speaking. I'm remembering going for a beer after my first trip and like having this moment. It was a sunny day and I was like, oh lovely a beer, sunny day. And I was like, oh lovely a beer, sunny day, nice view. I took a sip and I just spat it straight out. Oh yeah, I was like this tastes like shit. That was amazing.
Speaker 1:That was the biggest level of clarity of like wow, marketing hasn't just hacked my mind, it's hacked my tastes and like I was amazed at how clearly I could recognize how just it didn't taste nice and that, yeah, I love the way you said that. Like, yeah, we are subtly and sometimes being quite abruptly hypnotized by, in my case, my example brands. But in other cases, like, yeah, people projecting their fears onto you, people projecting their ideas onto you, it can be very, very, yeah, people projecting their fears onto you, people projecting their ideas onto you, it can be very, very, very hard to think for yourself.
Speaker 2:And I think that's where the more widespread use of psychedelics intentionally for personal growth can be absolutely life-changing for the individual, but also for the whole world. Because when, when all of us are living from this place of truth, you can't bullshit me anymore. Yeah, just see too much. And this is not coming from an ego perspective. It's like when I look into someone's eyes, I can see their soul. I can see if they're lying to me. I might not even be able to prove if it's a lie, but I can just tell energetically. And I think we are all born with those capabilities.
Speaker 2:And then, through school education, everyone's sitting in their grid of rows and being forced to be hypnotized by the teacher. You lose access to your own innate knowledge. And then, fortunately, there's these little shrooms planted on six of the seven continents, which bring you back into alignment. It's almost like God, or the universe or source, planted these little hacks in the simulation so that, no matter how hypnotized or misled you've been, you will have the chance to come back to source. And for some people it's through psychedelics, for others it's through breathwork, for others it's through meditation. But there's all these tools that get put in your way, on your path, clues that if you pay attention, you will pick them up. You will be called to some of them in your own way, in your own time, and I think it was Rumi that said we're all walking each other home, so everyone is going home to source. Everyone is coming back to the truth. Going home to source, everyone is coming back to the truth.
Speaker 1:It's been amazing to watch the last 20 years of how much more widespread things like manifestation, intention, energetics, astrology, psychedelics all these things which maybe were more considered woo, are just becoming more and more mainstream and the new generations have no problem using these tools yeah, I, I always think it's a case of like language, like sometimes people over over complicate things, are like put a little bit too mystique around it so you don't understand, and I think when we don't understand something, we fear it. But in actual fact, when, like when, when things are simplified or when you just take the time to understand something, they become a hell of a lot more straightforward. And I, yeah, I like that, like if somebody was like, hey, look, what does you know? What do psychedelics do? It's like, generally speaking, they help you just filter out your own bullshit and bring you back home Truth tellers yeah, truth tellers Lovely, really, really lovely.
Speaker 1:I liked also as well that you kind of gave different examples because, to be honest, like one thing that I've massively recognized is that we're very individual beings and what works for some people might not necessarily work for others. So, like in my experience, psychedelics have been fantastic. In your experience they have In my network of entrepreneurs and your network of entrepreneurs, fantastic For others might not agree, but what you shared, like breath work Everybody's on such a massive breath work buzz and that might work for them. Our yoga might work for them are actually sometimes the funniest one of the lot is just stillness can be the that's right, can be it can be the great tool, but it's what I can kind of find frustrating is like this one, which has been so unbelievably helpful and supportive to me, is met with such fear and it's like doesn't need to be there and actual fact, it's in the right way, in the right fashion. It can be extraordinarily positive.
Speaker 2:You mentioned stillness and I kind of laugh because actually I've had this realization. I feel like half of the benefit of psychedelics is that you're sitting still for six hours alone in a room with yourself. So, even without the psychedelics, just the ability to reflect on your life and your um, your path in life, for six hours or eight hours in the dark alone, it's already given you so much.
Speaker 1:And then, on top of that, the psychedelics come in and start moving the furniture around in your mind I've been on so many retreats, workshops, I've worked with so many different coaches, therapists, and yeah, what you said they're like like so much revolves around just sit in stillness and let your body catch up, let your body repair, let your mind catch up with itself. The other one, as well, was sleep. That they were like you want the biggest hack. I remember I almost found it kind of comical, like I went to all these different health and wellness and then all these kind of sexy retreats and they all came down to like the biggest improvement sleep better yeah like.
Speaker 1:That's one thing I find fascinating about, like the holistic world and of therapies, that, like you know, most of the solutions you're getting it's not a jar or it's not some product or something like that. It's just like if you could sleep a little bit better, this is going to change all these areas of your life. Or if you could just slow down a little bit and find a little bit of time to be still, your anxiety will decrease, your depression will go Like it's. It's I and actually that's just me speaking from my experience. I'm amazed at how so many of my issues were in reflection Now I clearly see, see were self-induced and the cures to them were not the complicated things that I initially imagined up, but in actual fact, they were as simple as just sleep a little bit better, go a little bit slower, find some time for stillness. And yeah, yeah, like. Certainly it is a funny one when you think that, like a psychedelic journey is generally about six hours of just sitting with yourself. There's a huge benefit in that alone. It's a forced meditation.
Speaker 2:So if someone doesn't meditate, they're going to be meditating in the mushroom trip.
Speaker 1:I remember I talked to a meditator who said, like, look, this is what I get. And I was looking at them in their elderly age and I was like how long have you been meditating? They were about, oh, about 25, 30 years, wow. And I was like how long have you been meditating? They were about, oh, about 25, 30 years, wow. And they were like look, everything you're sharing is what I experienced. And I was like, oh, that sounds fantastic.
Speaker 1:And it was just this kind of like perhaps he was disrespecting my like well, I just got this from some mushrooms and I was like, oh God, I'm not too sure if I could do 25 years of discipline to get to there. So that was an interesting one being like hey, look, you don't actually need the mushrooms. You can develop these skills yourself. It would just take a hell of a lot of discipline. Um, but that's actually something I'm not too sure how, how I feel Like I love the fact that it can be taken self-induced. But then there's the like it's kind of nice to skip the queue a little bit. What'd you think?
Speaker 2:All of nice to skip the queue a little bit. What do you think? All roads lead to rome. I see it as a beautiful harmony of the universe that here's this discipline that you can, for those that are ready to do it, for 20, 30 years it will lead them there. And then here's another tool that will lead you there, like mushrooms, and then here's another tool like dmt or bufo, which will lead you there in five seconds. So it's, there's these levels of how deep and how fast you can go, and so if someone's taking bufo, they will reach godhead, center of the universe within five to ten seconds.
Speaker 2:That's insane, and it's insane that it's available to us and we're so blessed and privileged to have these sort of tools. And that's why the respect is essential, because you know, when you said, some people have fears around psychedelics, a lot of them are unfounded, but some maybe are founded. If someone's not ready to face their mind, then they should not do psychedelics. If someone's not ready to face their shadow, they shouldn't do it, or they should start in with a very low dose and with a trip sitter and with a facilitator, because this is deep work, this is serious work yeah, I really like what you shared.
Speaker 1:Initially speaking, that you were like look, if you're prepping for your first trip, do less rather than more less, and you have a lifetime full of trips.
Speaker 2:You don't need to get the five grams, seven grams, heroic dose right away, and I just don't I?
Speaker 1:I love your all roads from lee to rome. In that like to be fair, exactly sorry, going back a little bit where I was like look, there's different tools for different types and and for that person who sat in his practice for 25 years, that's actually like there, this huge pride, and that that's his path.
Speaker 2:But there shouldn't be any snobbery around it from either side.
Speaker 1:And also psychedelics, might just not have been for him, and that's yeah, it's interesting how we all have our own unique lives with our own unique journeys. Our own unique lives with our own unique journeys, and and actually it's not about me, like not, like you're not thinking ill about any anyone else's, it's actually just the openness and the curiosity and the nice to share the experience and him to be like, wow, I've actually found this from here. Oh, interesting, I found this from here. Have you been able to do this? And we can actually learn, learn more about each other's practices through a level of openness, um, as well. So, thank you, I actually just got that little bit of clarity from what you shared. So thank you so much. Um, james, can I ask if somebody wanted to connect with you and like I love the way you've got the websites again, could you give me those two domains?
Speaker 2:So mushroomchecklistcom is going to give you the free PDF of what to do before, during and after your trip. And for those that want sacred shroomy music that I've personally shroom tested on all my trips, you can go to mushroomplaylistcom and that'll give you seven. There's seven levels so far, and each time I'm doing a new trip I add a new level, so the next one's going to be level eight and so on.
Speaker 1:Sorry, this is. It's a lovely thing. Do you want me asking when somebody, uh, builds a business around what they love, yeah, and gets giddy sharing their work, so like, obviously this isn't on video, but as I'm looking at james and you could hear it in his tone and everything he's like, he's smiling, he, oh, I love this. And it's level three and then level four and I. There's one thing that I really believe is we we sometimes we question whether there's a career in doing what we love and following our heart. You've built a career in doing what you love, right? I think that is really inspiring. This whole space as well, likewise, is really really inspiring. But it was just actually so nice to kind of just touch into that, are you? You certainly brought it up in me that, like, we can get excited about sharing our work.
Speaker 1:Sometimes people think like, oh, it's sleazy or it's salesy and it's like, no, it can be really helpful and it can be really enjoyable. Our work can be fun and I and thank you for that reminder as well, because I think it's really important For me I notice I have a brain that sometimes likes to overcomplicate and sometimes likes to think that work should be hard and I really need reminders and you just gave me a really good one there that it's like no, jamie, your work can be fun and, yeah, you might put a price tag on it, but it can be really enjoyable, uh, and you can. You can enjoy, uh, not just producing it, but sharing it likewise. So thank you yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for the amazing conversation. When you said about excitement, it reminds me of bashar's formula for success. So bashar has this formula and it goes something like follow your highest excitement in every moment, to the best of your ability, taking it as far as you can take it, and then follow the next thread of excitement and that's what bashar is saying.
Speaker 2:Is there, there's that source is guiding you. Your higher self is giving you these clues through your body's excitement, through your mental excitement. Of this is something you should follow and I think that's something that everyone can use with their career, with their path in life is you're being led by source oh you're being led by source.
Speaker 2:When I started doing psychedelics, I had no idea that I would be having a youtube channel about it or having playlists about it that I'm sharing with people, teaching people about how to do intentional trips. I I had no idea, but Source was patiently guiding me step by step, person by person, teacher by teacher.
Speaker 1:Mentor by mentor to my ultimate destiny. It's lovely, I actually think it's a nice, like almost parting meditation for someone to take their hand, place it over their heart and just ask themselves like, what will bring me more excitement in my life right now? What things could I do today that would set me up for more fun, more joy, more lightness, more ease? Yes, and if you were to kind of close your close your eyes and sit into those questions, it'd be interesting to see what, what answers would come up and if you were to follow them, what steps they might lead you towards. It's a. It's a the ever ending journey. That's all, ultimately speaking, leaving us home. And, uh, and some paths are more fun than others. So, James, thank you so much. If, um, if someone wants to connect with you, best place is probably Instagram, is it?
Speaker 2:I would say best place is my newsletter, jameszandercom. Okay, because that'll give them direct access to me, and then also my youtube channel, if they type in james zander.
Speaker 1:They'll find all my videos, like james j-a-m-e-s and then zander x-a-n-d-e-r. Yes I feel. It's sorry this is me probably thinking too much about the x-men, but when when I put an X, it feels very powerful and very strong and confident. So thank you. Thank you for the chats, thank you for helping me explore into this space and for sharing. This is really cool. This is the podcast I wish I got to listen to 10 years ago, and so thank you, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure. I loved this conversation. I loved your questions, your curiosity and just the way you lead the discussion is fantastic. Thank you, brother Lovely.