The University of Life
The University of Life podcast has become my personal collection of fascinating learnings from the people I meet and experiences I have as I explore life and journey deeper in to the space of business mentoring & life coaching.
The University of Life
The University of Life & James Mattingley
Meet James Mattingley, a beacon of transformation who has dedicated his life to creating enriching experiences for families and individuals. From his sustainable haven in Bali to pioneering the “Ubud Fight Club,” James shares insights on fostering deeper connections among men and helping couples build lasting intimacy.
We explore James’ personal journey of self-evaluation, fueled by feelings of inadequacy, and how this has driven his growth.
James offers a refreshing perspective on purpose and mentorship, encouraging a heart-centered approach to life’s nonlinear path. He discusses balancing head, heart, and gut wisdom for better decision-making and well-being, and the crucial difference between happiness and fulfillment—especially for men facing societal pressures.
Finally, we dive into vulnerability, emotional expression, and the healing power of open conversations, particularly among men. James highlights “Aware Parenting” for nurturing children’s emotional awareness and draws parallels between managing emotions in both children and adults. We also touch on the complexities of numbing mechanisms, addiction, and balancing structure with enjoyment. This conversation is packed with insights for anyone seeking deeper connections and personal growth. Don’t miss this enlightening discussion with James.
If ever you'd like to connect, please don't hesitate to connect via my website www.jamiewhite.com.
I am always open to feedback, reflections, guest / subject recommendations and anything else that might come up.
Thank you for listening, Jamie x
So, james, I am so happy to get to speak with you on this, so thank you very much. I see you as a mentor, I see you as somebody who is extraordinarily inspiring, as a man, as a father and as a partner, and it's an honour to get to have a chat with you and just tap into your world, not just for me, but to get to share it with others as well. So thank you.
Speaker 2:Thanks, man. That's a lot to take in as an intro. I really appreciate it how's? It been. Um, it feels really good and I noticed parts of me like the amount that I can let that in and the amount that I can't. So I'd say it's about. I can let in about 40 of that one.
Speaker 1:So it's nice for me. I can say it without reservation. Yeah, I think it's interesting. Like for me, I've always found myself a little bit of an observer. I love looking at people, I love looking at how they show up in different scenarios and everything like that, and I've I found, um, yeah, quite a caliber of man. So, rather than me walking on in that direction, can you describe what it is that you do or how it is that you're showing the world?
Speaker 2:Very inadequately. I can try Right now. I'd say my main focus is my family. I have a six month old and a three year old. At the same time, we're building a space for families, so we're developing a land where we live in Bali, a space for families. So we're developing a land where we live in bali for a place for families to come that's sustainable, that has gardens, that has playgrounds a lot of things that bali misses. Outside of that, um, I work with men, with my good friend and your good friend, jan, where we get to punch each other in the face with love and something we tongue-in-cheek called uber fight club. Um, and I work with couples around relationship, intimacy, vulnerability and sexuality Such a big sphere of like work. Yeah, it's a little bit too much, do you think? Only in that I constantly feel like I'm failing at each one.
Speaker 1:Really. Yeah, it's probably a good trait, though I think the best types do feel that they're like, they're not as good as they should be, and that's really their fuel to keep going. Whereas I get a, really, I get a little bit anxious sometimes when people say I'm extraordinarily good at this. This is my.
Speaker 2:It's very suspicious a little bit. I remember I asked a good friend of mine, elena, elena ray do you know elena? Yeah yeah she. I knew her. When she had nothing she would. She would pick and choose from the menu, depending on how expensive it was, because she just did not have any income, and she went from that into a multi-million dollar coach in a matter of just a few years. We're sitting at the table and I just mentioned this to her.
Speaker 1:I'm like hey you went from this to that how did you do that?
Speaker 2:She looked for a second, she looked up and she goes trauma.
Speaker 1:I think there's some truth to it. You know, yeah big motivator, big motivator.
Speaker 2:What was hers when she developed that out of free? Sorry, what was hers? So trauma, yeah, she didn't speak to what it was, but she has some family things, yeah yeah, no, she shared on this podcast as well.
Speaker 1:She's brilliant such a character. Yeah, yeah she's amazing. But when I think of yourself like to get into creating beautiful spaces for families to work with men essentially really facing their fears and to work with couples helping them connect, all the more, how the hell do you get into all of that space? What leads you into that work?
Speaker 2:I would say the multitude of things, but maybe an easy way to answer would be the thread, which is something I'm very interested in. For other people and myself, like, what's the golden line or the thin red line that connects all of them? For me, I'm always curious about how to go underneath the surface. Yeah, I just say surface, that's interesting. Underneath the surface, I meant underneath the surface, but also in service. So I'm very interested in depth and like questioning what we're doing and looking for what's beneath it and, at the same time, for men, finding this balance between strength and vulnerability or hardness and softness. Both of these things really capture my attention. Yeah, okay, so you're quite an observer, like myself, I think. So. I'm curious about your observing, though. Has it always been this way? Can you trace it to a certain moment where you realised that part of you was activated or heightened, or has it?
Speaker 1:just always been there, I would. Has it just always been there? I would say it's always been there. I can go back to play school and just observe how I can see how curious I was about how others were showing up in the class and the different social pockets, the different groups that connected and the ones that didn't, why one kid was the cool kid and why the other kid was the not so cool kid. Interesting, I yeah, I've always found that really, really interesting and perhaps there was like a want to me that I was like, hey, I want to be the cool kid and but then when I was the cool kid, why am I the cool kid? Why is?
Speaker 1:that other one, not I. I've always found life is more interesting when you observe it, rather perhaps just get a a little bit wrapped up in it and distracted by it Fantastically mastered that answer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do you find a difference between the ease of observing women or men?
Speaker 1:I know particular preference. I feel like now I'm on the other side and I'm suddenly in a coaching container with you and being observed.
Speaker 2:Who's observing?
Speaker 1:the observer.
Speaker 2:I'm curious because I feel like I have the same. What I notice with. It feels very different to me. Men and women in the observation. I find with men there's a lot of invisible hierarchy, instruction and women I'm saying this as it's coming up so I don't know how true it is, but with women there's what is it? Maybe it's just more obvious for me with men seems to be more of a hierarchy. Okay, like dogs sniffing in the street. Okay, yeah, and then with women. I'm not sure about women more complicated creatures more complicated.
Speaker 1:yeah, I heard a beautiful saying the other day from a Russian friend who said you know, people are always talking about equality when it comes to the sexes, but Russian women are so much smarter than that They've never lowered themselves to the state of a man.
Speaker 1:It's very funny, so good, I feel. Men are quite like dogs and you're like you're a node of like they're like dogs and you're like your node of like dogs sniffing each other's bums. It's like, yeah, we're quite simple creatures. Women are like cats curious, complicated, challenging and, just as soon as you think you have it, lost it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know. So the analogy we've used on the retreats before is like men are like a playstation controller there's a certain number of buttons and a certain combination that you can push them in and women it's more like a three-dimensional or four-dimensional playstation controller with a button shift almost every day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, likes to almost tease you think you got it, uh-huh, uh-huh. And I actually, if I, if I again think back to, like my younger years, probably one of the most fun things I can remember is just observing how my cat and dog interacted and, like my cat really kept my dog tight yeah, wow, do you love your work?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean the work that I do. I do because I want to. It's not a big necessity for me at the moment.
Speaker 1:That's quite a special thing to be able to say, because most people, to be fair, life gets on top of them and they end up just having to do what it is that they do, so to get to share and say, hey look, I do what I do because I love it. That's, yeah, that's special. Curb the list. And is it always that way?
Speaker 2:mostly, mostly so. So I had to give context to this answer that's brewing in my mind. I have always felt a deep yearn for a mentor or a teacher, and a deep yearn for a mentor or a teacher and a deep yearn for a singular purpose, and I felt guilty for having neither. Like I'm missing out on something, because my life has been very varied. It's bounced backwards and forwards quite a lot, and what I'm realizing more and more now is that my ability to go from one place to another and then thrive, and from there to another and thrive in what I'm doing as a choice, every time as a choice, has actually been a real blessing Precisely because of this, because the things that I've done and the things that I've been wanting to do and One one thing that I've been working with a lot recently is the Cliche sounding thing surrender to the flow of life- Mm-hmm you know this render experiment?
Speaker 1:I do yes, but I Don't want to like distract her, okay.
Speaker 2:It's just a fucking fantastic. It really hit me very hard because all of the thoughts of could I, would, I should have done when I view it through the lens of the world was taking me exactly where I needed to be at the time, brought a huge amount of ease to my anxious mind, it calmed my samskara. It's a balm to me and I'm still working. I'm working with it quite deeply at the moment. So, instead, it's a balm to me and I'm still working. I'm working with it quite deeply at the moment. So, instead of having a life where, yeah, it's been great, I've got to choose what I do and I bop around here for here, but it's missing something because it's not linear. Somehow, it's not this or that. Now I can say well, actually, each one of those things I did to the best way that I could and it's led me into a place that is as I said, very blessed.
Speaker 1:So what I hear from that is that you followed your heart and that has led you from one thing to the next, to the next. But the real asset that's kind of stood to that is that you're following your heart and that's enabled you to do whatever it is that you're doing really well. What I also hear is that that's actually quite unique and you would see others taking quite linear progressions in their career and just because that's the kind of a done thing, you would question yourself and you question your path and be like am I doing the right thing? And that can be quite haunting and that can be quite distracting. And then talk gave you permission to let that go and actually recognize that what you're up to is actually really what life is all about following your heart and and our hearts. If they're staying in one place, well, that's good for whomever that might be, but I don't actually think that's a very natural thing. I think our heart yearns to grow and to expand and gets excited by a level of difference every so often yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. The only thing that I'd add is that you seem to me a really like quite. You have a lot of capacity for that and for me it hasn't been over the years. So a lot of the time in my early years I wish I could say as long as my heart was involved. A lot of the time I was just following my head and what was happening. So I ended up.
Speaker 2:My first real job was working on cruise ships, just kind of randomly, as a luxury goods consultant. I would give presentations to four or five 600 people a week and send them into the islands to buy things that really matter in life, like diamonds and gemstones, and watches Turned out to be the highest paid job on the ship because it was all commission-based, totally random. There's one on every cruise ship but I wasn't going there because I'm like it was hot and golden in terms of it was adventure and it was free. It was adventure and it paid really well and at that time in my life life money was very, very important. It was a priority. I think it's been an ongoing and more recent thing to really tap into my heart and to recognize that, just as thoughts are ever-present in my mind. Feelings are ever-present in my heart. That was a mind-blower for me To be like oh, my heart's always feeling something. Why did nobody tell me this? Just like my mind's always feeling something why?
Speaker 2:did nobody tell me this, just like my mind's always thinking, and that's been a, that's been an uncovering as of late tuning all the more into your heart and away from the distraction of your head and just realizing well away from the distraction right yeah, just the simple idea that my mind is always generating thoughts, sometimes consciously, sometimes unconsciously, exactly the same for my heart.
Speaker 2:So I can have my thoughts right now. That's where I am right now, because I'm thinking about what I'm saying and I can also tune into my heart, and it's actually a different thing. But it's always giving me something. Sometimes I'm consciously thinking of gratitude and pulling it down, and sometimes it's just appearing spontaneously, but it's always giving me something. Sometimes I'm consciously thinking of gratitude and pulling it down, and sometimes it's just appearing spontaneously, but there's always something, just like there's always a thought that was a trip for me.
Speaker 1:Can we explore a bit of a theory? Yeah, okay. So I think many of us find ourselves ruled by our heads. Quite logical, yes, because we're in a logical environment where things need to make sense and you need to do what's expected of you and all that kind of thing, and that's great, serves some people, fantastic. Then we have our hearts. It really tunes in. I think it's like the center of the body. It tunes into. Everything connects back to the heart and I think.
Speaker 1:when we think with our heads, it's very logical, it's very linear, it's very one-dimensional.
Speaker 3:When we feel with our hearts, I think it takes an all-encompassing approach.
Speaker 1:I think when we feel into our hearts, we actually get a much greater thought capacity. That's it, and my belief is that if you can learn to tune into your head and lead with your heart, you Make much more comprehensive decisions. You might not actually even understand them because so much is going on behind the scenes, and lead with your heart. You make much more comprehensive decisions. You might not actually even understand them because so much is going on behind the scenes, but there will just be this feeling pushing you in a certain direction and once you have that, you can tune into your head, lead with your heart supported by your head, because the head is so good at figuring out.
Speaker 1:Well, what are the steps? Like I understand, there's the feeling coming from my heart to point us in the direction. Let's figure out the building blocks on the way there. So I find that my head is fantastic to support my heart, but when my head gets in the way of my heart I, generally speaking, don't necessarily fulfill my potential.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can totally get on board with that. I have a weird analogy comes up, like when you go to a restaurant and you open up a menu, the first thing that grabs your attention which would be analogous to that for me is always the thing that I go for now, Because I think if I spend time looking at the other options, I'm thinking about the different options and I can spend time there, and if I get something and I don't like it, then I regret it. So an imperfect analogy, but that's what comes up.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, James, if I followed that I'd be such a fatty. Well, I have a question for you on this, though. So when you find yourself in your head and you want to listen to your heart, what is the internal process? Is it a thought? Is it an embodied thing? How do you drop into your heart space?
Speaker 1:So what I notice is, when I'm never leaving my head, it's like a constant bloody merry-go-round. It's one thought to the next thought, to the next thought, to the next thing. It's exhausting and I can find, uh, I can find myself just not at peace and I like I'm thinking about something and it never really goes anywhere. It just leads to the next thing, to the next thing. So I literally my hand's over my heart, right hand first, left hand on my right, why, I don't know. I don't actually know half the reason behind so much that I do. It's just it feels really good doing it that way.
Speaker 1:I put my left hand down and it doesn't feel right Right hand. I'm like mm. Tuned, I close my eyes and I breathe slowly. Imagining the breath is kind of expanding my heart and then contracting my heart, and it's generally when I inhale I think of whatever I want to ask myself or whatever I want to come up with. When I exhale, the answer emerges.
Speaker 2:Huh, Interesting. Inhale you think about whatever problem or thing you're focusing on, and exhale you just let the answer come through.
Speaker 1:And what I noticed the difference between my head and my heart is when I feel into something in my heart, it's a peaceful answer. It's like if I break that down and make it more simple. If I'm thinking about something and I'm like, what am I going to do today? I could do this, but what about that? And this could be amazing and that could good. And then, oh, this. And then suddenly I actually think about something completely random, whereas when I tune into my heart and I'm like what am I going to do today? It's like you're going to do this today.
Speaker 2:Jamie and my head kicks in, it's like what about all the other things?
Speaker 1:it's like, jamie, you're going to do this and my head kicks back in again. But what about all this other stuff? It's like, don't worry about all this stuff today.
Speaker 2:We just need to do this today, do you?
Speaker 1:have an example of when.
Speaker 1:I could do it right now. Right now, as I'm sitting in front of you, there's a hundred questions piling up in my head, right, and I'm thinking a little bit behind, like the guy who followed his heart and got to follow his heart, I got to follow his impulsive wants. Oh, that seems a bit privileged. So there's a whole thing that's going on and I really want to explore that subject with you, right, and I lose presence and I, in this moment, I need to be like jamie, get back in the conversation so I'll breathe, breathe to calm myself. Then I'm like okay, what question comes next? I have no idea what question comes next, but if I do it now, I'm like I'll do it. And there's only like one question that comes up.
Speaker 1:It's like ask him about happiness. I love it. Weird, right, I love it. That's why it's like Jamie, what does James kind of feel is like are the contributing factors to bringing about happiness in his life? Ah, beautiful. But that is a prime example of like all the distractions out the window. We just want to ask him this. I love it.
Speaker 2:So it's such a way to cut through the noise and is the Dan Tien or your centre or your gut coming to? Because at the moment you've got head, heart.
Speaker 1:Is there a third centre for you, the gut. So now I'm really like I want to talk to you about the happiness but, ok, I actually used to talk to people about, like you know, we have three brains our head, our heart and our gut.
Speaker 1:But I couldn't differentiate between the gut and the heart, because when I thought about the gut, it's that deep feeling, but the more I believe our practice as beings is to bring ourselves into alignment, bring order to the chaos that we can just find ourselves in. Our impulsive nature and my gut in prior years was all over the place. I checked into hospital once with like dysbiosis, gastritis, colitis, kidney stones, and I just I really wanted to work on my gut. I'm I'm remembering a period where my gut was so bad that, like my short-term memory went.
Speaker 1:I couldn't remember people's names who I'd known for years and all this kind of stuff, and I'd actually this weird thing used to happen where I would say something, but this, the start of the conversation, so the start of what I would say was actually the end and the end was the start. I'd say sentences and refer weird, I don't even yeah, weird. Anyway, the more I've worked on myself, the more I would say that these two have come into alignment. Now I'm hoping for a challenge. You might be like no, jamie, this is how your gut thinks, but what I find is that that deeper like I used to feel that the gut was kind of like this deep feeling and thought.
Speaker 1:But yeah, that just seems to tune into my heart more now.
Speaker 2:Well, no, jamie, this is how your gut thinks. I just ask so of left relationships due to the disparity between my heart and my gut before. So what I noticed was, in this relationship, I'm like something isn't right. Something isn't right, but I couldn't figure out what it was or what to do about it. And in my head I knew all the reasons why the relationship was good for me. It was a lot of ticks, you know, and my heart loved her, because when my heart's open it just feels like love. So I totally loved her.
Speaker 2:But then I just went through an internal process of imagining being with her in five years' time and then being with her in 10 years' time and 15 years' time and observing, and my head had all the reasons, my heart had all the love. But I've noticed, if I imagine being with her in five years time, there was like it wasn't any words or voice or sense of knowing. It was just a constriction, because I don't, I haven't heard words from my gut, but I felt sensation, so it just like tied in a fucking ball. I'd be like, oh, that's crazy. So then I'd imagine myself in the opposite scenario. I'd be like, well, what if I wasn't with her in five years? Relief release. And it was very, very helpful for me to have that distinction between the two and I still use it. I mean, I use it relatively often when any big decisions are getting in my way and I I can't see my way through it.
Speaker 1:I future pace and then listen to the three centers so break that down for me once more head, head, heart, gut, okay, but breaking down the differences in your head, but within the relationship, well, actually, just in terms of your like, if you were describing, hey, well, here how the three operate differently Head logic, yeah.
Speaker 2:Checks and balances pros and cons. An open heart feels kind of like an eager, loving puppy. It wants a lot and it loves a lot. Okay, it has a lot of wisdom about where you should be going and what you should be doing and your deeper desire and the gut was like a deeper knowing from a body-based sensation, and the way it communicated to me is either tying itself up in knots or not. Okay, like that was its way of communication. Yeah, really interesting really interesting.
Speaker 1:I spent the last oh god month um very close with the guys from human garage. It's a guy called garyhan and he is helping it's very much trauma release and working with FASHA to help people build a practice around daily check-ins and trauma release. And they're all about reading the body in terms of what contractions mean not just physically but emotionally, and how different emotions are stored in the body and how different emotions reflect themselves in the body.
Speaker 1:So the most basic insight into that is when someone's down and when someone's depressed. They're hunched and optimistic. They're proud. Their chest is high.
Speaker 1:Their breath is strong and consistent versus slow and shallow in depression. And forgive me if I'm misquoting them, but what they were saying is look, jamie, we have this complete misunderstanding with regards to our brain, and the idea is that all our have this complete misunderstanding with regards to our brain. The idea is that all our thoughts and everything like that are in our brain and that all our brain tissues is in our brain. And then the more developed thought of that was like no, we have brain tissue in our heart, we have brain tissue in our gut. And they're like no, we have brain tissue in our fascia. We have brain tissue right throughout our being.
Speaker 1:It's why certain memories come up when you touch certain parts of your body and, rather than speaking about it in, let's say, a segmented fashion, they're like it's all there, and the body will express itself, generally speaking, in aches and pains, because we'll hear it most in that regard, although we're completely disconnected from that knowledge, unfortunately. So if we have a pain, just take a pill and we have a pain, we don't understand it and we can't hear the message. So they're doing a lot, a lot of work, and I think that one of the really interesting things is that they're translating that message for people. It's really beautiful. But when it comes to the thought process and when it comes to the thought process, yeah, I love the way they're like, you know they're very much think with your whole body, like breathe into your whole body, you make these full-bodied and actually the coaching words, you know they're kind of like a full body. Fuck, yeah, yeah, I actually.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that yeah um, when you shared your story about the relationship and your head being like, yeah, logically, this all makes sense, but your gut just aching with the thought of that relationship for me, I kind of like I'm like I love that you can ask your head to inquire on that for you. Yeah, so I I think it's actually quite a dangerous thing, you know, because I think our heads are actually so easily controlled. They will think about whatever it is that we want them to think about. So if, for example, say, we have like an instinctive thought that we should be fearful, yeah and your head is thinking about all the things that you should be fearful.
Speaker 1:It's like oh, nightmare territory. Similarly speaking, if you ask your head, like you know, why should I be in this relationship? Well, it'll tell you all the reasons why shouldn't I be in this relationship. Or I'm considering that you can lead your head in some very challenging spots, but my belief is they're they're not made of truth.
Speaker 2:I understand.
Speaker 1:The mind is a shit show well, the head, I would say your brain is a shit show. The heart, I think, is really, really true and I, provided I believe the head is serving the heart, you're in a great place, but if your whole being is following your head, I think you're living a shit show. Yeah, are you opening yourself up to living?
Speaker 2:in a shit show. You know doug sanhope the comedian. No, no, no, he's fantastic. I'm gonna murder one of his small bits. So please forgive me, doug anyone that likes comedy. But he's talking about he's, he's just like. He's kind of crass, he's always smoking cigarettes, he's, he's drinking, he's like on stage and that's just just his persona and who he is actually like. It's like have you ever tried this? Have you ever tried sleeping sober? It's a shit show. There's music in the head. There's this thought, there's that thought it's like. And what if she said that to?
Speaker 2:me and then I said that oh, and it was such a great parody of an uh, unspooled mind, yeah, like a mind that hasn't had training and discipline or the capacity to lean into the heart. Um, yeah, it's a wild thing. There's a something else came up for me speaking about I'm this is the wrong term, but I'm quite a fascist, isn't? I love fashion. I always have.
Speaker 2:I've trained quite deeply with a woman named cor and green Gertner and she has this amazing story about how she she was working and there was a box and there was a second boss laterally and he was just being really don't like, being a real asshole, and she felt like she couldn't speak Like and speak up to what was true for her. And she was in Switzerland, like she couldn't speak like and speak up to what was true for her. And she was in switzerland and she developed something called burning tongue syndrome, where your tongue feels like it's on fire. She leaves, comes to bali, she does writing while she's over here, burning tongue disappears. She flies back to switzerland. Three months later, as soon as her foot touches the tarmac, burning cancer syndrome comes back. Isn't that fascinating? Touches, the tarmac, burning cancer syndrome comes back. Isn't that fascinating? Very much in line with what these guys are saying right, like your body is giving a message all of the time, and it's not this or that, it's the whole thing one living breathing organism?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'd love you to explore that a little bit more. What was the kind of the finding or what was the experience from that Like, did she just literally get back up on onto the next planet there?
Speaker 2:No, she went in. I think I don't know. That's a horrible story to tell half of it, because I don't actually know what happened. If I remember, it's a number of years back that she went to actually speak. She spoke up in the organization against what was going on. I think that alleviated it it what was going on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that alleviated it. It's lovely, I. For a long time I like I had all these ailments and everything and I was like nothing shapes you, like the environment you're in, and so I was like this environment doesn't serve me and I'd leave. Uh-huh, and in actual fact, nothing serves you, like the environment you're in, and sometimes it might bring about ailments and issues that aren't ailments and issues but actually prods and pokes in the right direction to perhaps speak up, to perhaps have that uncomfortable conversation or make a tough decision, and if you only make those decisions, you'll feel at ease and at peace. That was unimaginable before. And you rob yourself of by leaving that environment. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's a great segue back to your question about happiness, I think, because, as best as I can, I focus on fulfillment rather than happiness, because happiness is so beautiful but it's so fleeting, so happiness might be, I don't know, going to the beach instead of having that conversation that is causing whatever ailment that you have or discomfort, whereas fulfillment probably going to be more fulfilled. Like you know that feeling when we have this beautiful thing here in your boat with the men, friends that I have and many of which you know. Where you have a problem, you come to them and you speak to them about it and there's space to speak and to be spoken to. It's not like that everywhere, but it's still really hard. I'd be happier actually to ignore it, but when I have that conversation I leave feeling deeper in myself and more in myself. I feel more fulfilled by having that harder thing rather than just going with the easier floating thing. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Happiness, the pursuit of happiness, can be very corruptive actually yeah, very undermining, but happiness is a byproduct. So if you pursue happiness first and foremost, god help you. It might lead you astray and all over the place, but if you see happiness as a byproduct of the tougher conversations, bringing greater fulfillment into your life, it's probably a much more serving approach, a much more long term approach as well. Quite interesting. Yeah, so many of us think with our head, but actually our head should be following and in support of us approach a much more long-term approach as well. Quite interesting. Yeah, so many of us think with our head, but actually our head should be following and in support of us.
Speaker 1:So many of us chase happiness. In actual fact, happiness is just what comes from perhaps pursuing fulfillment, and if you chase happiness, unfortunately it might be a never-going chase. Feels that way, right? Yeah, I have this feeling about happiness in relationship. I'm kind of leaning into your more like coaching relationship side, but I fear the couples that want to be happy and prioritize happy, and I think couples get to choose between happiness or safety, and if you build safety, happiness comes as a byproduct. But if you choose happiness, a lot of performing kicks in and it can be very, very corruptive and it can be very, very hard to have those uneasy conversations, which certainly aren't happy in the moment, but foster the happiness that you're pursuing. So, yeah, I think it can be a very good exercise and I love the kind of framework that you talked about, where you have this open commune with other men where you can bring your issues to the table, talk them out and perhaps have some really positive reflections shared with you. It's amazing.
Speaker 1:It's not the way that I grew up and I've had new zealand culture and irish culture share some things for men growing up right but, if you, if you get the opportunity to kind of share even like that and rewrite a script like for me, I always thought, being in a relationship, be happy, be happy and I recognize the reflection that that is the cause of so many issues, trying to be happy all the time. And if I only prioritized, let's say, fulfillment in your case or safety in mine, those relationships would have been a hell of a lot happier, I bet. And that teaches me a lot about be very, very careful with your goals. Be very, very careful about your vision.
Speaker 1:You might think you're pursuing the right thing when in actual fact it's very corruptive and oftentimes the thing that you are actually kind of avoiding a little bit, like, let's say, in relationship to tougher conversations. The fact is they're kind of the peace, the love, the enjoyment, the happiness, the attention on the other side of those times of disease and discomfort. A hundred percent Okay. So your route to happiness just so I can take that little inner calling that I had inside myself is pursue fulfillment. Yeah, then happiness Lovely. I feel a little bit silly if I'm sitting in front of that Like I want to give the title MasterCut. Is that master coach to whom you?
Speaker 2:I think you can give it to me. I'm not sure I can wear it good.
Speaker 1:That's probably indicative of all the reason why you should. And what are the issues you're finding with most men that are coming to you and that are challenged right now and that perhaps might be listening to this our partners might be listening in relationship, in whatever comes up for you, first and foremost, that feels good to share.
Speaker 2:I think, so I think so boring?
Speaker 2:no, not boring, but it's worth noting that there's something like a six to one ratio of men in prisons versus women. There's a three to almost four to one ratio of men suicides than there are to women. I think there's a myriad of complicated reasons for it, but one of the main ones are this combination of men feeling like they're an island, that it's not okay to ask for help, that asking for help is a weakness or a vulnerability in a negative sense vulnerability. And the other one is that when you're in the masculine mode of life.
Speaker 2:Life's job is to get things done, to get this work done, to get this relationship done, to get my woman feeling better, to make this work done, to get this relationship done, to get my woman feeling better, to make this money. If that's the only energy of masculine, then you're burning. It's a very, very dry energy and it leads to much more of all been speaking about with the mind service. So then it becomes. This sense of life is just one big uphill battle of to-dos, and on top of that, my partner is not happy with me, or I should be spending more time with my kids, and I'm not meant to ask for any help. I think that's the biggest, the biggest thing that I come across. There's a myriad of different things, but I think that's the biggest one Men getting strung out, dried up, mentally exhausted or depressed because they're burning a particular flavor of masculine energy that our society supports.
Speaker 1:And the medicine to that is A little bit of magic. Yeah, I got this kind of image of an iceberg. You know the way, the iceberg it's literally just.
Speaker 3:You see the tip of the iceberg, and rest is beneath the surface.
Speaker 1:I kind of just see the tip of the head. For so many of us men like going through life, and it's true, I think it's true of so many, not just men but like that we are just about with our heads above water, when there's a whole bulk of us almost pulling us under totally and it's uh, and it's accumulated, let's say disease, challenge, misunderstandings about the world and with those that we love and that haven't yet been corrected. Because I do find you have a healing conversation with somebody and you feel that a little bit lighter, you come up above the water that little bit more. But if you have a misunderstanding that's sewn into the very fabric of your being, not just with somebody else but perhaps about life, let's say, in my instinct, pursuing happiness over safety it starts to weigh you down and pull you under and I find that there's this sense of like living kicks in where you're not really living. You are a slave to your schedule and all the different things that are pulling out of you. You're living so reactively, you don't get a chance to be proactive, you don't get a chance to enjoy your potential or anything spontaneous spontaneous because you're literally just struggling to keep your head above water, struggling to keep going, struggling to just, yeah, keep up with the way things are.
Speaker 1:And I, I, I found it really, really sad. I think, like the work in terms of what you get to do, in terms of working with men and working with couples, it must be so unbelievably fulfilling because, essentially, what you're doing is you're just helping people to lighten the load, to work through the blocks that perhaps have become baggage and enjoy a little bit more time or a little bit more space or a little bit more freedom. Right, absolutely, absolutely, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, I think, yeah, it's a shared experience, but, in particular, the one that's coming up for me is that there's a much more complementing environment out there for women to ask for help and to talk, whereas it's a bit lonelier for men.
Speaker 2:Oh my God. The saying in New Zealand as a teenager. If you showed emotion, it was oh bro, go eat a teaspoon of concrete and harden the fuck up.
Speaker 1:Right, you guys are pretty bloody hard. Yeah, it's a pretty hard culture. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a pretty hard culture in New Zealand.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean so it's literally killing us, so it's literally killing men this particular aspect of not asking about and that's extreme. So on the extreme end, it leads to depression and suicide. Right, because it's being trapped in the mental cage of a mind where there's nothing left but things to do and you feel like you're a burden on yourself and everybody else around you. On the lighter side of the spectrum and this is perhaps more relatable for a lot of men it's just a feeling like there's not much joy in life. There's just a constant level of things to be done. If you're aware of it, it's even worse because you might have a beautiful life but not feel joy. It's almost worse than not having joy. It's like I should feel joy, um, and then you, you're kind of faced with not great alternatives, unless you're in a culture where you have a space to share and speak about it or be with other men, because the alternatives are to basically numb out so some of my listeners and be like oh no, I don't do that.
Speaker 2:I feel like, whatever my life is fine, I've got a lot to do. But then then look at the rate that you consume porn, or the rate that you consume unhealthy foods or alcohol or cigarettes or whatever it might be. Whatever it is that you do that you know, like you know in your bones, is a distraction from something. What is that thing? That's where the, the information that the world is trying to tell you is like. What is that thing that you want to get away from? I think that's a much more common experience for men out there that isn't on the extreme.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's funny, the, the have a tablespoon of concrete and hire them, fuck up. And when I was asking you I was like what's the? You know what's the, what's the trick, what's what can be done, and you're like, oh well, there's a bit of magic. But really it's actually the softening, it's the like I say this is me trying to acquire kind of pull your wisdom. But I can kind of feel that, yeah, this, this societal drive for guys to be so hard and so stoic and know there's so much out there on social media about like stoic philosophies for men and everything like that. But yeah, the magic for me is in the softness, is I? I generally find like if I have a softer conversation with a friend, it's so healing.
Speaker 1:Um, I I find it's the play, it, it's letting my guard down, it's being silly, being a kid again. That's magic for me in terms of retuning my energy and taking that weight of pressure off my shoulders. It's all the time self-inflicted but it's kind of taught. It's like to be a man is to be so purposeful. That's to be plain. Just get on with life. Come on, realize that potential of yours. You've so much potential and I find like the kind of the norms in terms of when I open up, you know that like I'll share. How could you be feeling that, like you've got so much going for you, that actually just obviously makes things worse, because that's the very punishment you're giving yourself the whole time. I have so much going for me. Why am I feeling like this? And someone says that back to you. It's like yeah, yeah, you're pointing at the issue all the more. Or in ireland, if you say anything, I'm not sure there's children in africa starving, the one thing, I thought about trump guilt card.
Speaker 1:The one thing I found so confronting is when I went to over to africa and I worked in townships and I met some of these kids that were starving. They were so fucking happy. Yeah, they were like a degree of happiness that I didn't know and I was like there's something very strange going on here, uh.
Speaker 2:But I do feel it's odd that, like there's gonna be a great twist for your kids. It's like when they're like angry or upset, you'd be like there's children in Africa that are really happy right now.
Speaker 1:I, I, I. I think it's odd that, like that's the go-to response. How are you doing? You've got everything going for you yeah there's children in. Africa why, isn't it like what's on top of you Totally? How is that?
Speaker 2:Because it's so easy, just to go.
Speaker 1:Oh, what's wrong? How are you? How are you really feeling? Like that's so simple. Why do we auto-tune to the little people's issues?
Speaker 2:I think vulnerability is really frightening.
Speaker 1:And exploring that in the context of, let's say, a relationship, a partner's down, and someone says how are you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really hard, especially in a lot of relationships, especially if there's a focus on happiness, to be like for a guy, just to be like. I'm really hurting right now, I feel confused, I feel lost right now. It's a hard thing to do with that cultural narrative.
Speaker 1:And sorry, I get it, because if I was to look at my partner suffering and I was to say how are you? And she's like I'm really suffering, there's an immediate anxiety that comes up in me Am I the bringer of your suffering? And like, oh, but surely you can be something like we have so much going for ourself. What about this and what about that? Is the kids in Africa? Okay? And so for the parents chatting to a kid and the kid is like I'm so unhappy, immediately speaking, the parent is interpreting that as I'm doing a bad job, I'm not good enough. And wait a second, I am good enough yeah, there must be something wrong.
Speaker 2:What we, we practice a thing called like I have two kids, one six and one's three six months, one three years, and we practice something called a way of parenting. It's been kind of a revolutionary light set.
Speaker 1:I've been hearing a lot about this, oh yeah, from yeah.
Speaker 2:From who Dylan? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, deep in it. It is profound. So basically the entire thing is you be with whatever emotion is coming up in your kids and you listen and you be like I hear that, you know I get that. I really get that. That's it, and we're not going to do it for this if there's a reason, and then you're just with them and feeling whatever they're feeling Raging, screaming sadness, it doesn't matter what it is, but you're really there, which is the opposite to what happens, which is distraction.
Speaker 1:So bear with me. The kid starts crying and the instinctive reaction of most parents is to shut the kid up Totally. So like I'll play with this toy or we'll do this, we'll bounce you up and down and the kid is getting more annoyed. He's like hey, you're not listening to me, you're not hearing me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, until he shuts down.
Speaker 1:and dissociates, yes. And then actually, once the shutdown and the disassociate is like great, we can sleep now. Yeah, and so that behavior is fostered, yes, whereas what you're practicing is like a kid starts crying and you look him in the eyes and you're like, oh, I'm sorry, you must be feeling a lot right now. And it's like, oh, and you're really struggling to express yourself at the same time too, I'm sorry, that must be so much. I'm here with you and you know you kick, you scream, you shout, let it out and let's get to the other side of this together, 100%.
Speaker 2:And that has been like the results of that, for you have been uh, fascinating, because we didn't with our first child, we didn't know about and we did with our second and first. It would empower me as a father so much more because I have a capacity to be with my kids, even as a little baby crying. But I that before it'd be like, oh, gotta go to the mother, gotta go to the boob, which is a way to control it's. This is delicate for people listening to it. So you, if the baby or kid you know doesn't have a dirty diaper, if they're not hungry, if they're well fed, if there's no physical distress or pain or sickness, we're talking about these situations. It's just a buildup of emotions. Before I've got my wife and I've gone the boob for comfort and soothing and I'd go to sleep, but it was just stuffing down, repressing whatever emotion I was feeling. It was like giving them a candy bar.
Speaker 3:Basically, with our second child, because I wasn't there and because I had this methodology, I can be with my young son and crying and tears, and just be there loving and supporting.
Speaker 2:And you see them, it's move through, it builds up to crescendo and then they just like, they look. Either they just sit and look at me with this feeling of look of wonder and relaxation or they're just fall asleep.
Speaker 1:And I feel like it's such a gift for this little boy and this little girl to me not to them to be able to honor how they're feeling in the moment, at that moment and not feel like it has to change you know um I don't want to like move so quickly that you don't think what I share there is actually beautiful, true, but if you were to like say and jamie, the impact in terms of cry time is, whereas before I was spending this much time crying, now it's perhaps reduced unknowns you listen to way more crying okay, oh my god, yes, way more.
Speaker 2:Because before you you distract out of the emotion of crying and feeling and raging. And now you're with it and a toddler I don't know if you've been around a three-year-old that's pissed off it can last for a long time. Okay, it's way. It'd be way easier and way less time consuming and way less difficult. I'd be way happier at certain times not to do it, okay.
Speaker 1:So much more To me with no kids, and just this fear of listening to non-stop crying that does scare me a little bit. Well, it does stop.
Speaker 2:It might take a while to stop.
Speaker 1:But this kind of goes actually back to like, let's say, I'm all about like finding what I call pillars of wisdom, like one thing that kind of reflects itself in so much, and so it is hard to endure the crime. Yeah, but ultimately speaking, that approach is probably gonna stand to you a hell of a lot more in later years, whereas it will be so easy to want to say, let's get you some boob and let's put this crime to bed. But I can definitely in my head, what I'm seeing is that sewing the framework for I'm angry, let's get you some sweets. I'm angry, let's give you a day at school. I'm angry, let's support you in this way. I'm angry, let's buy you a car and all sorts of stuff. So you're tackling a potentially really destructive and toxic habit at the get-go 100%.
Speaker 2:I mean, if my daughter is in the middle of a rage, I know for sure if I turn on YouTube and give it to her, she will stop immediately Because she doesn't really get many screens. But it's fascinating and that would be a lot easier. But I find myself doing that with YouTube around emotions, if I'm not conscious and aware, and I'm feeling just sad or whatever. I'm just like what have I been doing for the past 20 minutes? Oh, should I actually do something for me to feel? But what I've learned is a distraction. So the equivalent for an adult of this is that you go to your friend and you're like, hey, I'm feeling really sad, this thing happened, I'm just feeling a bit rough. And they go go, look, do you know what's?
Speaker 1:happening next week, you know what we're doing next week?
Speaker 2:oh, we're going to go to that park and this is literally the way that most kids, most kids, are raised. And what's really crazy, when you start noticing yourself, right, or you go back and spend time with your parents, yeah, and you see the way that interacting with you, or interacting with with your own kids, and, oh, there's no wonder, it's complex and challenging for me to feel my own emotions because, from a very, very young age, me, like many others, have been distracted out of feeling what needs to be felt, which ties into what we were talking about before with men, and not being able to express what it is they're feeling yeah the screen time that you mentioned there for me is really interesting.
Speaker 1:I am I. Do you know why a laptop is called a laptop? No, because you place it on your lap. Yes, on top of your lap. Steve Jobs used to get the old computers and literally sit them on his lap, and he also said he didn't want his kids anywhere near Apple products. Fuck, and I'm just. I think there's well. I'm anxious, in the years to come, how bad we're going to see screen time is and how toxic it can be. What's the conscious decision on your side in terms of reduced screen time for your kids.
Speaker 2:They basically don't have any. There's three exceptions. One is when we take long flights, we travel a lot, and then she can watch whatever she wants. The other is if everyone's kind of sick and at the very like just edge of all of our capacities as a family, then we'll watch a movie. And the other one is when she brushes her teeth wow yeah, any particular thought.
Speaker 2:We we had a real tough time getting a toothbrush. You know we didn't have the tools to to do it and it just developed into a habit. And then she also fell off a chair and split her front tooth, so it's actually a. She had to have a root canal and it's a filling which for toddlers filling so last three well.
Speaker 1:So we had to put a make sure it's well brushed okay yeah, so that the other three exceptions of screen time good exceptions, yeah, I'm.
Speaker 1:You talked about kind of like when you brought up coping mechanisms quite a bit throughout this and I think that awareness of your own coping mechanisms and how distract like coping mechanisms work to a point they soothe and they can be supportive, but when they're distracting you away from feeling something that's needed to be felt and something that's going to really serve you well, I kind of think it's quite sad and I recognize there's so many times that I've distracted myself with tv or food or I don't know what else, as I say it with a big, like very guilty, looking face on me. Um, yeah, it's amazing how destructive or destructive is wrong, although obviously it gets to it, but how you just miss out on so much uh, so much learning, so much value. Um, because obviously, for whatever feeling is coming up and you, there's wisdom in it, but if you don't get to feel it, you don't get that wisdom. You kind of end up going around in a loop, unfortunately yeah 100.
Speaker 2:I think I, like many men, wouldn't even really realize even this whole language of feelings of most guys. It's not a, it's not a color palette which they have access to. So even the idea of numbing, for me, if I go back a few years ago like I didn't really get it, you know, because I didn't know that was numbing away from feeling something.
Speaker 2:I just be like oh, I feel a bit flat, so I'm gonna watch a movie or whatever it is, but I know this would happen more and more and more. So the conversation is almost like um, what are you doing on a regular basis that's not filling you like, what are you doing on a regular basis that's not giving you energy or vitality or fulfillment? And then look into that area and that's the area you want to put attention on, and next time you go to do it, try not. And noticing literally noticing how you feel and noticing what comes up.
Speaker 1:Food's my beast, like food for me is just so. This is so obvious at times, like when I'm actually to take it a little bit step further and someone described stress. Someone described stress to me recently is when you find yourself doing all the things you know you shouldn't, and with food I notice so many times when I overeat and I overeat because I'm feeling so much and it numbs that out, um, but it's just such an obvious like you're out of sorts journey, but the downfall from it is really, it's really frustrating.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like it perpetuates itself, right? Because you overeat, you feel like shit. You wake up, you feel like shit, you don't feel like doing the thing that would really serve you, and I think that's the case with a lot of numbing mechanisms they tend towards a downward spiral rather than upward spiral exactly that downward spiral and the time when you actually really really need something to lift you up yeah it pulls you down and it becomes all the harder in those circumstances to do something that will serve you for the better.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know what a fantastic trick is. Trick the right word, I don't know. Trick is with this is that next time you notice it, what I'd invite you to do is do it 100% consciously. Be like I'm feeling something. Oh, I just ordered that triple what's?
Speaker 1:your go-to comfort food. Oh my God. It just goes on and on and on in hundreds of different directions. But I love where you're going with this, because I had a little nelta and, a few months ago, something just lacking up, I basically missed three consecutive flights. It's so laughable. Like I was meant to be going to my friend's birthday and I missed the flight, so I booked another, missed that, booked another, missed that, and at that point I was like I need to change gears here and I was like what are all the things that I love doing that I know are awful for me? I'm gonna do them all yeah yeah, and how was it?
Speaker 1:it was amazing, right. Firstly, I got to really enjoy a load of things that I haven't been doing for a while. It's like I it was. I got so like, I was so angry and then I was like I'm going to turn this around, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this, and I started getting really giddy and excited about doing. What was amazing for me was the next day. I woke up so light, yeah, and I was like, ah, prior to that, I would have sort of seen coping mechanisms as very toxic, and in that moment I was like no, these are helpful, these can be useful, these can actually bridge me and they can. They can just change my energy.
Speaker 1:I mean a bad habit can be liberating with awareness you know, I hope I haven't like dug myself into a hole and you're like aha, jamie, now you're about to see that this is much bigger and worse than you think the opposite.
Speaker 2:I think, if, if you're, if your go-to uh numbing is watching a tv series or a movie when you know it's probably not the best thing for you, the best thing to do in the beginning, particularly, is to like a hundred percent, do it be like this time, this day. I'm just gonna do this and I'm gonna give myself full permission to enjoy this and I do it with the food that I love to do, and I'm gonna do it be like this time, this day. I'm just gonna do this and I'm gonna give myself full permission to enjoy this and I do it with the food that I love to do, and I'm gonna do it completely and fully and be aware of it and the joy of it in the moment. I think that's a beautifully freeing thing. I think that's really valuable.
Speaker 2:In my experiences, when I do that, um, the funk that I'm in lasts much longer and if it's a meal, I may not even finish it, or if it's a movie, I may not even finish it. I just needed some permission to to do that thing. It's been caught in the middle of it.
Speaker 1:That creates so much of the stickiness yeah, when I'm hearing you share that. What's coming up for me is, let's say, like the different layers on my journey. So there was a certain point where I lived so linearly. It was like I need to be healthy, I need to go to the gym like this, I need to follow my routine. My structure became so stressful and so unenjoyable and now what I'm recognizing it is like jamie, you can have your cake and eat. Yeah, like the structure and everything serves to a point, but balance it out then with some complete mad behavior. A hundred percent.
Speaker 1:And there's medicine in that. And I feel sometimes with diets and stuff, it's like you know, sometimes people will get in this habit of a new diet and it's like the diet for the rest of their life and it's actually there's no freedom in that, there's no real growth in that, there's just constraint. And I love this new layer that I've learned of like now you can't make mechanisms have their place, it's just perhaps there may be a level of discipline out, a conscious of time. But I have one last question for you on that what are your thoughts on alcoholism? Oh okay, can you be more specific? Yeah, I right, the AA's kind of teachings around alcoholism and addiction are that you know once you've found trouble in alcohol. And I know you're not an expert and I'm like the caveat on this conversation that he was listening is we're not experts in any way.
Speaker 1:This is just two people exploring a subject because I'm really curious on what you might have to share in this.
Speaker 1:People exploring a subject, because I'm really curious on what you might have to share in this.
Speaker 1:So the kind of understanding around somebody that has trouble with alcohol is that once they recognize that they have trouble, well, they recognize themselves as an alcoholic, somebody who should stay away and abstain from alcohol forevermore.
Speaker 1:And that kind of turns my theory with regards to like no, everything has its place in moderation and balance on its head a little bit, and my belief with the kind of the teachings around addiction and alcoholism is that they're constrained a little bit. It's like, yeah, it's a huge thing to get yourself to the point of control and restriction where you just don't have it, but there's a missing element of growth beyond that that can help bring you to a whole other level of freedom where you can enjoy a drink again. Now, whether you want to or not is a whole other level of freedom where you can enjoy it again now, whether you want to or not. It's a whole other thing. I'm just curious. I just and this is me just expressing a random subject that comes up in my head that I'd be really keen to explore with somebody that I admire and appreciate perspective definitely not an expert in this realm, though alcoholism, in different ways, surrounds me, I I would say I lean more towards what you're saying.
Speaker 2:I think there's a danger in identifying and locking anything in rigid and who we are, because if there's one thing that I know, that we're not rigid.
Speaker 2:We change all of the time and by virtue of the fact that I know and I know of alcoholics that have been through the journey and come out the other side and have a different relationship to it, I can only imagine that that's possible and that would feel more freeing than I am not, or I am as a linear metric and concurrently I can hold that. People have chemical imbalances and people have deep lineage, long addiction histories and, um, even certain ethnicities have vitamin deficiencies that lend them more towards alcoholism right. So I think it may be in some cases that someone's dharma or someone's purpose is that is the only way to navigate through it.
Speaker 1:But I would hope for a lot of people that there's this space to hold more than just a binary stance at some point if alcoholism is in trouble so I, um, I introduced you at the start of this podcast as somebody that I really look up to and admire as a man, as a partner, as a father, and there's quite a joy in just throwing a random question at somebody. I like it and seeing how they respond. I think for anybody listening on, you'd be like he's. He's actually naturally that polished. It's like you and James casually. You mean James in in a in a more kind of a supportive setting and he is that naturally.
Speaker 1:And I I'm just at all like, when one can work with themselves to the point that they can come at a question like that with from so many different angles, tick all the boxes and I always used to I love this idea of being able to communicate in an unfathomable sorry, an unfathomable fashion where it can't be really critiqued. It's like that's a whole answer, that's a beautiful answer. So thank you for taking the time to share with me. Thank you for, um, yeah, sharing your ideas in so many subjects and humoring me in all the different spheres. Uh, james, if somebody wanted to reach out to you, if they were curious, listening and they were like, wow, I'd love to talk to that guy, is that okay?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's totally okay and the best way to do that is Instagram.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the reason you saw me pause is that I've been off social media now for a few months. Yeah, it'd be my website jamesmattinglycom, or my Instagram.