The University of Life
The University of Life podcast has become my personal collection of fascinating learnings from the people I meet and experiences I have as I explore life and journey deeper in to the space of business mentoring & life coaching.
The University of Life
The University of Life & Marc Laws
Imagine being caught between the drive for success and the need for peace—that’s the journey Mark and I explore as we dive into fatherhood, authenticity, and personal growth.
We start by discussing the courage it takes to stay true to yourself in relationships, challenging traditional ideas of masculinity through personal stories that highlight the strength in vulnerability. Mark’s thoughts on fatherhood reveal how relationships, especially with children, teach us about presence and love.
As we navigate relationships, we discover that mindfulness is a powerful tool. We share stories about choosing partners who reflect the values we hold dear and how offering grace during conflicts can lead to growth rather than division.
Our conversation then shifts to flow states, especially in sports, where the connection between mind and body offers life-changing perspectives. These states, often rooted in childhood, give us tools to face life’s challenges.
We also explore the link between sports, yoga, and personal evolution, drawing parallels between self-awareness in soccer and the philosophies of yoga, using technology to aid in self-reflection.
Mark reflects on his journey from the busy streets of London to the calm of Bali, illustrating how finding balance between ambition and peace isn’t just geographical but also an important life lesson in aligning drive with the natural flow of life.
If ever you'd like to connect, please don't hesitate to connect via my website www.jamiewhite.com.
I am always open to feedback, reflections, guest / subject recommendations and anything else that might come up.
Thank you for listening, Jamie x
Nothing to apologize for. Where are? We at.
Speaker 2:Mark, I'm noticing when I'm trying to interview you I'm almost having a panic attack in front of you. I actually feel intimidated sitting in front of you about to do a podcast together.
Speaker 1:It's hard to believe man no not at all. We're so close, you know. Yeah, it's funny, right? It's because of the device, isn't it?
Speaker 2:This is what we were talking about earlier.
Speaker 2:I think it's half the device and the other part is like I think there's like, okay, a conversation with somebody is very sacred. You sit in front of them and and like you open your heart. And one thing that, like I've noticed every time I sit down in front of you is that like there's a real sacredness of which you meet. Is that like there's a real sacredness of which you meet somebody with a real presence, a real connection, and there's a bit of a kind of swing to this when it's like, okay, I'm just going to click record and you have no idea who's listening in. No idea what kind of judging ears are that? And it's a, it's a. I suppose there's a big vulnerability out. Yeah, but anyway, it's a pleasure to get to do this with you. So thank you massively.
Speaker 1:Yeah, likewise man, and for you, sharing so authentically. That's, I think that's what keeps us so connected is there's so much truth in the air yeah yeah, it's, it's, it's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I again a little.
Speaker 1:It's again a little bit wobbly but I love that because it's so courageous to be able to share, like our inner thoughts and our process and what we're actually going through, like this truth that I'm talking about. That I'm aiming to practice as much as possible, you know, thanks to my father, of just like being challenged to do that in his generation, where they're like no, you got to hide these things, and that's what a man is and that's what strong is right. Don't show your feelings, don't share your emotions, don't share any of your weaknesses weaknesses, quote-unquote to now, like two men sitting in front of each other being like fuck, this is what's really happening for me, man. And it's like fuck, I love you, man, thank you, like me too, and it's like you know, and everybody gets to grow from that now I understand my nerves.
Speaker 2:I remember describing you uh to someone and saying, mark, it's probably one of the most embodied natural coaches I've come across, in that he shows up with a presence that commands presence and truth, as in when he asks you a question. You don't want to bullshit him. You know he can see through your bullshit, and so to be sitting in here about to have a chat and clicking record, I'm like, oh God, what have I done?
Speaker 1:I hope you know there's no judgment.
Speaker 2:No, but it is actually a lovely quality to have that when you show up with somebody, you really show up. And you know, I remember chatting to, actually, james, who I recently interviewed and I kind of joked with him. I was like I'm about as busy as somebody could be without two kids and as I sit here from view and I recognize like you've a lot of plates spinning, a lot going on in your world, but regardless, when you show up, there's no distraction. You show up in full presence and and it's, it's, it's very special. It's also a yeah, it's very special, but it's also, yeah, it's very unique.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I definitely thank my kids for that as well. I thought I was really present before them, but now even more present, I feel, because of them, like back to the whole love thing, because I love them so much, I want to be present. And then when I am and I wake up, sometimes it's just looking in their eyes when they're asking just to play, and I'm so like busy in my mind of like I got things to do and blah, blah, blah, and it's just like, oh shit, you just, you just want to play with me, you just want me around, that's it, that's all they're asking for all the time and I'm just like I have so much to learn from you. Thank you so much. So that's like I talked.
Speaker 1:I talked about my first son, because I have two sons now. One's nine months and the other one is four years, sage, and I feel like sage is my the first child, is the one who initiates the family into family, like they have to take on all, all the stuff, the transition from woman to mother, the transition from man to father, but it has to be fully accepted, otherwise there's going to be a lot of challenges for the man to father, which I can truly speak from. I'm just like, oh, my old life and all the time I had and all those things are just like being at peace with them and be like, okay, it's, that's done. That person doesn't exist anymore except through the experiences that get to come with me. But that's, that's no longer my lifestyle, and it's just amazing how I guess the wishes that I had to be the best man that I could possibly be could be in the dharma or the purpose of being a father.
Speaker 1:That's the most enriching experience that I've ever had. Nothing competes out of anything that I've done, any spiritual awakening or anything like that. It's like this is like it allows me in real time to see where I'm really at Versus, like taking on concepts and philosophies, and maybe some medicine, which is probably number two. Actually, I'd go children number one, wife number two, plant medicine number three, three, and then everything else after that as my greatest teachers, greatest teachers, yeah, yeah, my parents, of course, as well, but like currently, right now, in these moments, these, these past few years that have been around, it's profound.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can imagine as you see your kids come to life and you see your kids reflect parts of you.
Speaker 1:Oh god, so confronting such a catalyst for growth in those moments, yeah, yeah, yeah we were talking about that earlier when we were having a coffee before and, um, like yesterday, I was uh, I was feeling like a nugget of, I guess, anger, a bit of stress, overthinking, and I took that into my morning and just things compounded where I just wanted peace. Just things compound where I just wanted peace. And then, at a moment where my lovely wife came in to check in if I wanted anything like a coffee, as simple as that. But as she asked the question, she just kind of walked away and didn't listen to my answer, I'm just like I don't appreciate when you do that. But it didn't come out that way, it came out a little bit sharper. I'm just like why do you do that? That? You do that more than once. You know like we've, you know that type of thing. And it's just like then she's gone because she knows how to like be with these things, and then I get to be with myself and I'm like, what was that mark?
Speaker 1:what why are you behaving like that? And it's like, of course I know why. Because these things are building up inside of me. And then hours pass and my son's favorite friend is there, his favorite girl. She's there playing with him, and then they have a moment where he wants to do something different than she wants to do, and then he's a little sharp with her. And as I'm listening to it, I can hear my mind, but it doesn't come out of my mouth. I'm like don't speak to the people you love like that. And as I'm thinking that out loud without saying it to him, I'm just like, oh, mark, what about you this morning when you say the same thing to yourself? And I'm just like, wow, if I really want to be an impact on my children's life, it's not do as I say, not as I do, but do what I say and do what I do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so just major reflections constantly interesting the order of those three greatest teachers because, well, plant medicine will definitely take you out of your head and let you observe yourself, and then a good partner will literally just hold up a good mirror and let you look at your shape like. I love the way you express that with regards to your partner that you were snappy with her and she didn't even entertain it. She just walked straight out of the room.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cause she's next level. If she were to have reacted.
Speaker 2:I think she probably would have distracted you and in that distraction you might not have seen your shit so obviously. But in walking away she just leaves you with it. Brilliantly. But then taking it a step further, when you can see many you acting out you and knowing not just that that's an expression of you, but that you've also planted the seeds of that trace in the next generation perhaps haunting or I thought I was hiding it well, perhaps, and if not, then it could be genetic.
Speaker 1:You know like information is being passed down, so it's best that I be on my best display, from an authentic place, not just pretending, but literally just like I am, that I am peace, I am love, at least that spectrum of love, I just care. Like you said, that's a perfect word.
Speaker 2:So you've got those three greatest teachers sure um. Can I ask you what you're wrestling with most of the month?
Speaker 1:that those three teachers no, not my three teachers, just that, those moments of like, maybe the sharpness, or allowing things to compound within myself, and I guess what's compounding a lot of times is not. This is good, let's think, because some of it is like I have a bigger vision of things I want to move into in terms of projects, and they're not available right now, so there's a patience play. But, at the same time, what my mind will do be like well, look at all these opportunities that you had before that you could have capitalized so that you can be doing this right now, and then that will send me on a spiral of just like, fuck man, you're just, you're just not doing good enough. Like you should be way better than this for everybody, for yourself, for your family. Like you should have this and that, and then comparisons to like what other people are doing that are already living the life or having the project fulfilled that you want to fulfill once in your life.
Speaker 1:Um, that creates this, that kernel that I was telling you about.
Speaker 1:That came out with the people that I love as a sharpness, and so that is definitely what I'm focusing on. Like that's my yoga at the moment. That's what I'm focusing on is like, even though the majority of moments might look like I'm very centered, like that may be the truth, but what about those moments in between where I get tilted off of balance? And I think in those moments specifically is sometimes it comes out, sometimes it doesn't. So what I'm trying to give a lot of awareness and change to, at least new embodiment of, is that I feel like if I practice it enough and catch myself and then speak upon it like sometimes I'll have to apologize for sure, just clean it up, get it as clear as possible, keep it that way, continue to practice that one day not even the thought will drop in, it'll just be so clean and so clear within me that I can just move to, I suppose, another space of this love, this care, this presence that I want to embody and just be an example of that.
Speaker 2:So when I hear you speak, what I'm conscious of, even in the example right when you were quick with your partner, mm-hmm the partner doesn't even entertain that, she leaves and you sit with that right like that.
Speaker 2:That actually is quite a nice example of for so many. It wouldn't have left their partner leave. They would have chased their partner out. I'm like, hey, don't you go anywhere and tangle themselves up, let's say, in their shit, whereas what I hear from you is kind of like a much more slowed down approach, of like actually I'm going to sit with that. The same way, when you see an issue crop up with your kid, you, rather than jump to speak, you're actually analyzing your thought and you're sitting with it and you're taking responsibility for yourself. And then I hear you being like oh well, I'm a bit frustrated that I'm not where I'd like to be. Let's say, with regards to certain ambitions in life, you've prioritized your own uh piece for yourself over and above those ambitions, it sounds like. Would that be fair to say?
Speaker 1:um, yeah, I would say that it's. It's, I would. It's not complete, it's more of a um, a constant uh, conditioning, because obviously it comes up, then I have to deal with it. And then same thing, um, thinking that everything should happen right now, right away. And then sometimes things happen so fast that the I guess the sans scalpel they would call it. You know, that groove just automatically happens. And then you're it's like you had no control over it, it just happened. And then you get to look at it and you're like what, who did that? Who had control here? And I think I think, just like you be.
Speaker 1:You know those of us that continue to question the discomfort. Eventually we'll get some tools or some answers on. This is why it's happening. This is where it comes from. There's a lot of just yogic texts that talks about the word I use in scalpel, just like these grooves that are just automatic that we have, which means it could be changed. But it's going to take a while to create a new groove. Right, it's like digging, digging a trench Like you have to. It takes a while to build it and then all of a sudden, the water will just flow through it or the energy will flow through it, but you have to build it first and not use the old one anymore. But it's not going to happen in an instant and, uh, I think that's what also. That's what I think. That's what also that's what I think plant medicine does is like it creates a space for you to have to create new grooves in with a wider perspective.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so, yeah, like in these moments that you were talking about, like maybe in the past I'd want to be like no, let's sit down and fix it right now Versus over time and through a beautiful relationship of just like truth, trust and transparency and honesty, and also being together for a while, just knowing, like if she's doing that then it's just like oh, because, also, I really like, I feel like sometimes we choose partners that we also like look up to because they have access to something that we don't quite have yet, and I feel like she has some of that for me, of just this incredible grace, with or without challenges, like in that moment that would have been like if I was on the other position. I'm like don't speak to me like that, let's not do that. And it's like that could probably fire against fire, versus like she's just like here, have space, and then me being the person that I am in this moment of just like, oh man, she's good it's quite an attentive philosophy for life, like as in to.
Speaker 2:Really well, the kind of the idea that comes to mind is to really slow down and to really look at how you're showing up in the world and to see how it's serving you. You know, recognizing that's not going to serve me in relationship, recognize that that's not going to serve me as a parent, and it's it's not like it is something, obviously, that a lot of people get initiated into, let's say, with plant medicine, this idea to observe how we show up in the world and refine, refine in line with where it is that we want to be, or how we want to be and where we want to go. But it's unique, right, it's not not everybody does this, but you seem to do it at a level that I would say it's like unparalleled. I haven't quite come across somebody that has this attentiveness to their way of being and I'm so curious like where, where, if you were, if you were to observe yourself, where do you think that's come from?
Speaker 1:oh, man, there's. There's something you said as well at the beginning of that of slowing down. Like I really like that insight, because that's sometimes it can sound like a luxury, which it can be sometimes, depending on what you're doing and where you are in your life, because you know people that are listening to this, like they're all. We're all living our life at a different pace and some of us have to work a lot more hours and don't get time to slow down or at least try and make time to slow down. And I feel like there's so much juice in that and in these arts of just slowing down and taking a mind to let ourselves filter. And for me, I feel like when you said that the first image that popped up for me was just being a child, like I was, I was always in my head, I'd have conversations in there, just like things that would be happening to me, whether I'm like having a great time or being scolded. It always felt like I was watching myself and being myself at the same time, kind of, like some say, like having all three eyes open, you know, so that the two eyes that see the outer world and then the one eye looking inwards, but they're all open at the same time. And that's kind of always been my perspective, and especially like I got to practice it a lot when I started playing sports because I grew up playing soccer, so I can also see it from that perspective. And then I think my favorite part about playing sport was that when you get into the flow, the flow state, like people are dubbing the flow state, when you get into that like when I got into that like things would just time would slow down, like people would slow down, and then I would see an image of what I was going to do before my body actually did it and this is all happening, like the ball could be in midair from a corner and I'm going to do like a side volley and I the image, image, everything, just like and then my body is moving at the same time and I'm watching myself do this. Yeah, I'm like this is incredible.
Speaker 1:So I feel like because of the sport I got to practice it over and over again, not, but like I'm gonna sit down and practice this more of, just like I got to be in that environment over and over again, that I just took it with me into everything that I did and I feel like, I suppose like what drew me into the practices of yoga was the opportunity to have a space to do that again. It felt so familiar. I'm like, oh, this is like the philosophy that I learned from the game of soccer, that I see so embedded in the arts and the scriptures of yoga, this self-knowledge, this self-inquiry. And so it took me into that world.
Speaker 1:And then just to see that other men and women have left scriptures behind of these same tools that we can use in our life. They're timeless tools. Every once in a while you see someone pop up in the modern times saying, hey, let's call it something different, different, but look how useful this tool is. And it's just like oh, that's. If you know yoga, you're like oh, that came from you know what I mean from the vedas, or it came from I, I actually do.
Speaker 2:You know what. It makes so much sense to me now because I can, I can recognize. I remember when we uh, when we played rugby in school and they'd record the matches and then we'd sit down as a team and we'd watch back and I remember the coach literally zoning in on one of the players feet before he got the ball and his heels were up and he was primed to sprint, and I remember just like how we would analyze how we would show up in a game to that degree of like, look, when you don't have the ball, have your heels up, be on the tips of your toes, be prepared to move, and having that like analysis in terms of how you play a game. I can see that for you. Well, when the game moved aside, that same analysis went into yoga and that really he started really analyzing how you show up for yourself in that regard and that's now extended into life.
Speaker 1:So that's that's that really, that early age approach to football or soccer has applied itself into yoga and then into everything how you do life as a whole yeah, that's for sure, man, I like, I like that and I like, I like that story and how it relates, because, also, I feel like there's that level and priming that not the inside, but being able to, I guess, watch ourselves from the outside versus having a camera also pick those things up, like technology could be useful as well.
Speaker 2:I liked when you were talking about flow state, be useful as well. It's, it's I. I liked when you were talking about flow, flow state and, um, yeah, I liked when you talked about, like you know, if I'm going to sit with myself and I'm going to, I'm going to observe the, the moments that are serving me and the ones that aren't, and I'm going to catch those. Very soon it'll run on autopilot and that that's how I achieve my, let's say, my flow state in life. I have to slow down at certain points, but, ultimately speaking, I will speed up. I have this image of Mr Miyagi in Karate Kid you know, like wax on wax off?
Speaker 2:We haven't done any karate and he's like, ah, but you have.
Speaker 1:Bro, right, yeah, it yeah. I feel like, because we're talking about that and I love the internal technology I would call that the internal technology and being able to do that and watch ourselves and see what's like on autopilot, and then maybe what program we want to change to this new version of self. And then there's the hardware. There's like the technology that's outside of us, like a camera that could be you, and you're like oh, I do that in my head, I thought I did this. Or the phones that we use and the algorithms, how they watch us so closely that they know us better than we know ourselves. And then, when we watch ourselves, use a phone and just like, scroll or do this, and that it's just like. And then you wake up from the trance and you're just like oh shit look at what I'm doing, look at my behavior, look at what I'm.
Speaker 1:Where do I spend most of my time, like when it comes to pictures and scrolling, like what am I doing on this device and all of these things? And I'm just like that. That's also been blowing my mind a lot of just like watching myself and what I'm attracted to, what I use more if I'm going to do a message on Instagram, for instance, and then all of a sudden I wake up from a trance again and I'm scrolling a few times or reading something that's interesting and be like but wait a second, why did I come on this in the first place?
Speaker 2:I've said it a few times on this podcast before, but I remember one of the most confronting therapies, I would say, is when I started wanting to create content it was for YouTube at the time and I would ask myself a question and record my answer. I remember watching it back for the first few times and be like I didn't say that and what the hell am I doing with my hands? And it was just so confronting how different what I thought I was saying was to what I was actually saying. And but little by little, as I observed it, I refined and after a month or two took quite a while of recording every day. I started to say in those videos what I thought I was saying. It was a clear reflection and I'd say, representation.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, in hearing you speak, what I'm getting at is this, like this philosophy for life, where you slow, you slow yourself down, you note and recognize the parts. Perhaps that when you're out of sync and you take time to correct them and you do it to a point, then that over time, you, you flow, you show up in this flow state that everybody's looking for. Everybody wants flow state, but I don't think anybody wants to do the thing that you were perhaps masterfully doing, which is slowing themselves right down because everybody is looking to flow so they can speed up yeah, you've seen all the ancient arts, right, that's why Tai Chi and Qigong go with the martial arts.
Speaker 1:It's like the slowing down the process or to be able to speed it up and come with more impact. I feel, like those you know I talked about, like those are my three greatest teachers at the moment, but like the teachers are always changing and there's so many of them, you know, slowing down to definitely be a teacher, or just looking at nature and the way things grow, or just even my breath of just like every time I'm breathing in I'm borrowing the breath and then when I give it back, I have to give it back and then eventually I'm going to give it back and it's going to stay that way. I have to give it back and then eventually I'm going to give it back and it's going to stay that way. So it's like it creates a lens that I look through life a little differently and I think intention is one of the biggest you know, next to slowing things down. Like the intention is the reason why, because I intend to do this.
Speaker 1:Therefore, I feel like our body is so intelligent, like all the layers of ourselves are so intelligent, that when we put an intention to it. So the energy that we get to, to use which I'm I'm using the word intent then everything shifts towards. Okay, let's look for the things that will help this intention transpire. So if, like, my intention is like I just want to be the best possible man that I can possibly be and be at peace, all these other things like there's so many like my intention is like I just want to be the best possible man that I can possibly be and be at peace, all these other things, like there's so many like intentions in it that I feel like my whole being looks out for those things and creates these not not creates scenarios, but creates the vision that I can see. Sometimes these moments happen where I can learn from that we were just speaking about. Like, I feel like that happens because of that's my intention it's, it's, it's just, it's a, it's a.
Speaker 2:It's a lovely perspective, because so what you just shared there, I think so many would say I just want to be the best, that I can be, the best man, that I can be the best father, the best parent. That's fine.
Speaker 2:Sorry, I was like parent, father, that's the same thing. But anyway, your philosophy is to slow yourself right down and, let's say, almost microanalyse. For others they're like, yeah, you know what? I want to be the best father and the best partner, but I'm going to work so hard, I'm going to do all this and, unfortunately speaking, they start stumbling and all the issues and all the bad that can come from when we approach life a little bit too fast, like you've spoken now.
Speaker 2:Let's say you're three greatest teachers and you were like you know, I had another teacher slowing down. There's so many other teachers and when you said that, I was like thinking to myself, yeah, instinctively, probably like what are? Let's say, if you have your three greatest teachers, the opposite of that, three corruptors are like the three worst things that you can do. And I notice, almost instinctively, I find myself speeding up and it never serves. Like, over and over and over again, every time I, I speed myself up, cracks emerge, I let myself loose and I, I, I end up creating a greater mess. And I'm curious. I'm going to kind of ask you somewhat similarly, like, okay, so I have no doubt speeding up doesn't serve too much, but what else have you found? Really, really doesn't serve you.
Speaker 1:I think that, like what you were saying, I think that those are. I think it's really valid that we do make a mess, because that allows us to see our mess, because sometimes I think I feel like it's out of our control, sometimes that nature just does it for us, like, if we push too hard, that we especially like, let's say, an athletic um point of view if you're pushing too hard, eventually you're gonna get injured yeah or if you're working too hard, eventually you're gonna get burnt out, and I think those alone are just like an indicator of just like hey, there's something to learn here.
Speaker 1:And either we pick it up then or we don't. And I feel like because also like slowing down too much, you're not doing shit, you know, and then there's no energy, there's no flow, there's just like a blob. So it's like the answer's in the middle right yeah, just done.
Speaker 2:And that answer in the middle because, okay, because earlier on in the podcast, when you're like, yeah, the one kind of thing is that there's certain ambitions, that I'm not where I'd like to be, yeah, and so what you've recognized is, hey look, this slowing down has served me to a point, but it's also served a bit of a detrimental edge and I want to put a bit of a push in behind it now yeah, now we're talking about so many layers, right, because there's like the slowing down of the mind and there's like the slowing down of not doing much in action, absolutely like there is more to be done, and then just like yeah, you asked about like, what are my challenges?
Speaker 1:it's just like finding that happy medium point where I'm not pushing too hard, because that was like the old me and finding that center of like allowing also nature's momentum to be part of my momentum, and then the two meet.
Speaker 1:So the I guess that space, or that that space that we're talking about, that's in between, is like nature has its force too, and and things are coming towards us. So we don't have to push, push, push, push for everything, because things are coming, but we also have to play our part, and I feel like that's the middle, and I feel like we all have a different middle path and that's definitely where mine would be of just like that's definitely what I'm looking to serve, which is interesting too to like look at my life and just be like okay, well, it was so easy to do that pushing in my 20s. Then I started to slow down a bit in my 30s when I moved to Bali, and then so much that I'm just like, okay, I need a little bit of we talked about this over coffee a little bit of discomfort, but at the same time not wanting to be uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:Is there any particular thing or event that happened that you can clearly kind of reflect upon, where you said you know, like I was speeding up, I was kind of getting stuck into life and then I came to Bali?
Speaker 1:But around that time, was there some kind of catalyst that slowed you down? No, I think there were moments like living in the city, like being in London and also just being at a certain age I feel like we have a lot more fire. But also, especially in London, it's very fast-paced. I was probably sleeping two to four hours, maybe six hours every once in a while a night, and I was just loving life, going for it, traveling a lot. But then there was a moment, I think in year seven, so I left at year eight. I just wanted to know what it would be like to live in more nature and visit the city rather than live in the city, and then every once in a while I'll visit nature. And so that's when it started and I had no idea Bali existed.
Speaker 1:But then Bali I arrived one day in Bali and I'm just like, oh fuck, this is it. This feels like home. And then my transition started to happen. And then my transition started to happen and then I noticed that anytime I had these moments of like being in bali or india or even thailand, that things would slow down a little bit, especially in bali, that it was uncomfortable uncomfortable for me to slow down. I'm just like I should be doing something. I'm not doing enough. And I was like it's my wife now, but my girlfriend then she's just like didn't you ask for this? And I was like oh yeah.
Speaker 1:I did ask for this. I wanted to slow down. You know, I wanted a little bit of this and then I started to really get into it and then the the lockdown happened, and then I really got a taste of just like slowing down quite a bit. It was really quiet on the island. I had my first child and then, yeah, now I find myself on the other end of that. I'm just like, okay, I've definitely learned to slow down. Now it's time just to pick it up just a tiny bit more. I feel like that's the perfect amount, just setting my sails and then just let it go.
Speaker 2:As you've shared that I, uh, baz lerman, sharing in my, in my ear, being like live in northern california once, but leave before you get too soft.
Speaker 2:Once but leave before you get too hard yeah, man like when you were like, yeah, I lived in london for seven and a half, eight years and you're like, wow, two to four to maybe six hours sleep, like that, that's a hell of an intense schedule. That strikes me as a completely different person to the man who's sitting in front of me now. Oh, so much fun, but like that is doing London and then, on a contrast, obviously here in Bali and that slow down pace Again, I've said it so many times in this podcast, but like how incredibly impacting an environment is on us.
Speaker 2:It seems like your environment must be really, really impacting on you, one where you go from sleeping that little and you're like crazy fun. You kind of feel that energy from you. Versus in here, bali, for so many, is about slowing down and it really has that effect on you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a that's a very, very vigilant insight of of I am. The external environment does mean a lot to me. Yeah, it definitely has an impact on me. That's another thing that I would love to. I'm all about transcending things, because I would love to transcend that too, like I love external environments and it has a massive impact on me, but I would love to one day, within myself, be so solid that it doesn't matter what the environment is. I'm solid. Yeah, I tried that approach.
Speaker 2:I like tell me, tell me more I like I've tried to.
Speaker 2:My journey is kind of somewhat similar around COVID. I basically I lived in city centre in Dublin till COVID and city centre in Dublin was all I knew and it was great. And then COVID happened and all the buildings stopped and in that moment I enjoyed a peace and calm that I hadn't known before and I felt amazing. It's funny I can actually feel it now as I'm feeling a calmness coming through me. Wow, that's powerful. But then the building started again and I remember when all the building sites came back up again and the traffic came back up again and couldn't quite hear nature in the background, just the stress that I felt was repulsive, like literally it was two days later I'm out of here. It was that strong for me and anyway, I, I traveled around europe and around the countryside, went, went to all sorts of places, loved it, went to bali, and then I came back and I, I couldn't tolerate it. I was like I can't, I can't live in the city, like I, I, yeah, I I felt so out of out of out of my comfort zone and out of my strength and out of sorts. So I went back to Bali and I felt great again. But I was like no, this is ridiculous, I can't be trapped over like I need to be able to reintegrate.
Speaker 2:So I went to London and I I genuinely had like I would say almost like a panic attack. Literally just walking in the street I was like, how is this? I've gotten so fragile? And anyway I, little by little, I was like I recognized that if, if I really looked after myself in that, in that environment, like if I did my yoga and if I ate well and if I slowed down and I didn't put too many demands on myself, I could cope in that environment.
Speaker 2:But I I then thought to myself it's like jay, so this journey of transcending the impact of your environment on you it's like really what it's becoming is extraordinarily laborsome. And how about you? Just go somewhere where you're going to flow, take that burden off your shoulders, because if there is a place that to exist you have to do all this stuff just to be about normal, surely there is a place where you have to do none of that and you're superhuman, and and I kind of feel that that perhaps is a bit better of a pursuit than trying to, let's say, transcend the challenges of an environment. Find a place that's actually going to make you feel superhuman yeah, I like that.
Speaker 1:I feel like I feel like bali has always been like my practice place, also home, but I I also feel like there is this space within us that can have that like. I guess it's almost a test, like if I was to go back into london and I feel like these hardships, um, or these challenges I never really found it as much of a challenge, it was just the pace. But then you really feel the pace when you go to places that are slower and um and also more nourishing, like I couldn't agree more man.
Speaker 1:Bali is so much more nourishing than the city was for me, and to be able to go to a place to see where I'm at, so it'd be like a reflection to go back into, like the city, and just be like, oh okay, like I don't have to do all these extra practices. I just I've just become it like I'm embodying these practices now, um, so it'd be like more of a reflection that I feel like is available for me, um, rather than like I. Also, I also wouldn't want to pursue it if it was just like all this, like if it was detrimental to my health, right, but I feel I do feel like it's within me that I could be in any space and just be like, no, with no extra effort, just be like, oh, just at peace with the way things are, and I'm so solid within myself and with people, and then I kind of use that as, like my teachers is like the external environments are everything.
Speaker 1:It's like the relationships, it's like the actual environment of places and things like that that allow me to check in with myself.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I haven't been away for a while, though I was thinking I had a couple of interviews ago. I was talking with a woman, hania, who really a kind of a naturopathic doctor, and uh, there was a nice moment where I was like how much of the work you are doing with people will be negated if they were just living in the countryside. True, right, true. And I I think that sometimes we tax and burden ourselves with, let's say these, like ideologies here, we go.
Speaker 2:This is great yeah, like, keep on going, man, keep on going. I want to be able to transcend any environment, so I'm going to do so much bloody work on myself. But the fact is it's like, well, unfortunately, there are kind of some laws of humanity and there are environments that work for you and there are environments that don't, and there are these traits and these tools and these ways that we can look after ourselves that allow us to tolerate some certain stressful environments for a certain time. But it's a bit of an uphill battle and when you like god I always used to say it's funny people turn to wellness when they need it.
Speaker 2:What about if they turn to it when they didn't need it? Like those, all those wellness habits, tools and tricks, they do allow us to cope in challenging, stressful, let's say, city-like environments. But if you take them into an environment, that's already complimenting me, that's that superhuman pursuit and that's been something that I've been really curious of is like, perhaps, instead of looking at all this stuff just to cope, get the foundations right and let all of them be a compliment on top.
Speaker 1:I think, so too, I think that.
Speaker 1:I still, I still do highly believe that the environment, like so much can happen in an environment for someone that hasn't got a chance to enjoy it and to be able to take that back to where we came from and also start to adapt the environment there. That's not conducive for good health, um. But also I truly do believe, and I guess the the reason why I use like transcendence for me is like it's it's the relationship with oneself and the love for oneself that I feel like is the absolute lens of all reality. So, no matter where you are, if you're like, if you're so clear in that it doesn't really matter where you are, but if you were never to know what it feels like which is why it's important to have these type of external environments then it's hard. It's hard to know what it feels like which is why it's so important to have these type of external environments then it's hard to know where to go and then to have these tools I feel like are just the practice. I think that's why they call it the yoga practice is an opportunity just to practice until you become it, and then the yoga is about like the very word is just like being balanced, to be yoked, to be complete. And then what does that feel?
Speaker 1:Like, no matter where you go, and that's what I'm really curious about is like that's what I mean by transcendence. I'm just like. It's not like ignoring anything, but it's like, oh, now you can really see it from a bird's eye view, you can see it all. That, therefore, you choose your behavior at all times, doesn't matter what the environment is. I've seen a few people out there that that do really well with it, um, but I've never met them in person. That's more of like, like, I feel like I like what sadguru says, where he's just like he doesn't give anybody the privilege of choosing what his emotional responses are going to be, he chooses it.
Speaker 1:And I was like that's kind of what I'm talking about. I was just like I'm in power of this entire vessel, that I can anything that I can imagine, like in terms of what we're using right now the word transcendence that one day I can be, perhaps become that, and then perhaps this is the road to that, the word transcendence that one day I can be, perhaps become that, and then perhaps this is the, the road to that, with all the, with all of my teachers and, you know, through my relationships and through the environments, to constantly reflect to see what's possible. I like the way you're like. Your face is like no no, it's not.
Speaker 2:It's actually. It's it the intimidating thing of when six or seven subjects come to mind I'm like, oh my God, which question do I want to ask first or which way do I want to take this conversation? But what I find is like how, what I'm coming to you in this conversation with is my experience. I find myself it's, let's say, confronting, actually recognizing who you are and who you aren't, and like perhaps there's the argument of like, transcend who you are, but it's like actually are exactly are. What I find fascinating is, like, jamie, it's your experience that you don't thrive in the city, but there are people you know that do thrive in that city and life isn't necessarily about wanting to be them.
Speaker 2:It's about recognizing who you are. I find like so much online is you know there's so much stuff that we read about that is good for you, it's not. It's good for some, actually not good for others. Environments that are good for some, not good for others. But we can get very distracted and very blinded, let's say, pursuing what we think is good without the recognition or without that connection or sensitivity.
Speaker 2:Yes it is good, it can be good, but is it good for you or not? Like that's odd, Do you want to know what the example that's coming to mind? Is go for it raw milk. Yeah, raw milk is so good. Right, it is so good, I recognize it's so good, but it's also not great for me right it just doesn't feel good with my system and it it's.
Speaker 2:it's funny that there are so many things that are like so good in a grand sense and so good for so many but not for others. But I have burdened myself so many times by like wanting to perhaps be something that actually, once I've done the work and fully recognized, it's like Jay, that's just not you, and that's okay. And I was like Jay, that's just not you.
Speaker 2:And that's okay. It's just like a real I think a real important journey of like self-acceptance of all this and self like it's not boundaries, but just like well, what's that great? Saying you can be anything but you can't be everything and there's limits within that. Anything in yourself, and accepting that there's real peace, whereas trying to stretch beyond that is like torturous.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like there's so many things, so many threads that I enjoy about that Of not everybody is on their own path is what I heard from you as one of them. Just like we all share our own journey. Heard you know from you is one of them. Just like we all share our own journey and we're all we're all. We also all have our own blueprint of why we're doing what we're doing, but it's not for everybody. Like my particular game that I'm choosing to play is not for everybody.
Speaker 1:This is what I, what I seek and what I enjoy, and it just really fills my heart up to be able to be with this incredible body that none of us really know anything about and we're just kind of learning as we go. It's like these are the things I want to know most about. Can I be in a place of transcendence is the word we're using of peace and in harmony and of love, and these are the things I'm gonna do and what also what I loved what you said is that it's, I feel, like the the path of how I'm slowly moving towards is through self-acceptance. There's all these things that come up and be like oh okay, that's that's what I do. Right, that's me at the moment, or at least what I've identified to be now. Is there any way I can mold it into something that's more towards this image? You know, because I feel like image is one of our most powerful superpowers. That's why it's all over our phones, you know, or when we go to the movies and you know it's not real, but you're still having an emotional response, right? So then it's hijacked. But then if we have the same power to create image and we live into our image, then which image do I choose to live into? And so, as I share today, this is the image that I choose to live into. And can I embody this image of self? So there's only one way to find out, I think. What is it?
Speaker 1:Mcconaughey, mcconaughey, matthew McConaughey yeah, I love what he said in one of his speeches. I can't remember where it was. He got an award and I think he was talking about these three pillars of what he lives by, and one of them was his hero, which is the third one, and his hero you've probably heard this before, but his hero is himself 10 years from now, and I love that. So that's the image that he lives into that he'll never, ever attain, because it's always 10 years from now, and that's kind of how I feel about, like my purse, my pursuit or what I want to use my life for, is this particular image that we're talking about and, uh, just always moving towards it, knowing that I may never embody it, but I definitely love the journey towards it yeah, that speech when I cry and watch it.
Speaker 2:So good, ridiculous, so good speed. Yeah, man, you killed it. There's a when you share acceptance. There's a funny one like that's uh, like an image that's coming to me of an Instagram post I saw recently, like it was a little video and it was. I switched from reading, I switched. I switched from reading about, or sorry, when you switch from reading self-help books and personal development to fairies and fantasy and discovery or something like that, and it was just a person dancing in the rain, happy as can be, and I I suppose that's probably a little bit confronting for me, because I delve into all the kind of self-discovery and side of things and there is a part of it that is like, well, there is a part of it that's actually confronting self-acceptance.
Speaker 2:It's like you are not who you want to be and here and here's a manual perhaps to to evolve and and there's a balance and there's value in it to a point, but it does bring up feelings of like self-hate to a degree and and there's, there's a lovely, uh, there's a lovely piece but, let's say, comes with self-acceptance. There's a lovely growth that comes from that self-acceptance as well. And, uh, and what I like to be kind of, the image of joy that I saw of that person dancing in the rain, and I was like you know what, let's take this, like this push. We're constantly our pressure that we're're putting each other under so much and actually just enjoy a bit of life at the same time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I used to have a good friend that would start all of his classes this was during training, this was yoga and he said so he'd show up and sit up there at the front. It was like 20, 25 students. So does anybody have anything that they want to talk about? Or should we go for a walk on the beach? We were all there, for I think we were there for two and a half weeks together. Not one single day did someone say let's just go for a walk on the beach. Always, someone had something that they wanted to work on or do. Rather than like you know what, we can just go live life and take a moment. It's like, and I love that. I don't know if that's what he meant by that, but I definitely took that from that. I'm just like yeah, you know, and so yeah, it's, it's great. It's really great just being that person that's just dancing in the rain. It's just remembering, really, if you ask me, yeah it's quite confronting.
Speaker 2:That's like confronting. It's a really good example.
Speaker 1:What's confronting about it?
Speaker 2:It's such a good example. There's certain times in life where you'd be sitting in that classroom like, oh no, let's talk about this and let's worry about that, let's do. Ah, we could just walk on the beach and, at the end of the day, what's going to serve and stand to you better?
Speaker 2:You might have learned some fantastic philosophy in that class. But what are all the benefits of going for that walk on the beach, dipping your toes in the sand, getting a bit of sun on your face, feeling the lightness? It's odd, but here's the question, right?
Speaker 1:Yes, sorry to cut you off, so think about it. Right, you're in there and why are you there in the first place At the yoga teacher training?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you were talking about. Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:So a lot of people would be like, because I need to fix something or do something, it's just like, okay, well, that's great, let's do that. And then, once you do that, what are you going to go and do? I'll probably go live life and then go enjoy myself and go walk on the beach. It's like, wouldn't you like just to do that right now. So it's almost like you're. It's such a like, such an interweaving of like. No real answer, because either way is going to be right, because, also, you don't want to bypass anything, you know, and you feel like you want to be doing something, but at the same time, do you?
Speaker 2:really need to.
Speaker 2:Well, they say, 80 of the thoughts that we worry over never actually eventualize right so like the amount of wasted time that we give up to as humans, the amount of nonsense that we distract ourselves with, is unbelievable.
Speaker 2:I'm like you know so much of your philosophy of growth is like jay I just slow down, I give myself time to see and to process and, as a result, grow, and the opposite of that. Where we're overly busy, we don't get to see the issues and mistakes that we're making and we end up falling all over ourselves. So I think it's probably a very confronting thing. But to look at yourself in the mirror, look at your days, how you're spending your time, the enormity of wasted and the amount of messes that are self-created like I don't think anybody really wants to admit or accept that, like the majority of mental health issues are are of our own blame. Boy, you're right. The amount of like overall health issues, like and when you really break it down, like when it comes to your career and stuff, it's actually quite simple, it's quite straightforward, but it isn't when we're creating so many messes on top. So you know it kind of took a lot of inspiration from me on the slow down approach.
Speaker 1:You know, and also just acknowledging how comprehensive it actually is, because it can be and sometimes, sometimes, perhaps, maybe there's not a way out. Sometimes, at least not yet, and it's just a seasonal thing. When you said that, you made me think of my, my grandpa and I always check in because my my grandpa taught me this indirectly and, um, it was a. It was a story about, like him. He had this vision of, you know, working so hard that one day the family can just be together and enjoy life, and so the family had to be separated. So the mom would live in one part of Canada, my grandfather would live in another part and he would just be working hard, he wouldn't see family for months and eventually just tore the family apart. So it was like that tore the vision apart, because the whole reason why he's putting all that work in was for the family, but then in the end didn't have a family.
Speaker 1:And it's just like. The weight of like the middle path is really what I'm always trying to tune myself into, even though slowing down is a big part of it. It's just like but what's the middle, what's the middle path? I feel like the answer for me in my life has always been in the middle of the two extremes and there's a nice spectrum in the middle that you can play with I get very sad hearing that.
Speaker 2:No, like it's really sad the amount of people that have, let's say, sacrificed today for tomorrow. Yeah and it's yeah. They say, like you know, nobody was like very, very, very, very few would intentionally want to do any harm. It all comes from a good place right, exactly right it's so sad thinking the messes that we create for ourselves with the best intentions.
Speaker 1:That's really sad, but you know in the end, you had chances and had a beautiful family and all of these things. So at the same time, it's like that very story is always stuck with me. I'm just like always checking in with myself and being like, okay, if I choose, this choice is this does this fulfill the overall picture?
Speaker 1:yeah you know, or is it just giving too much? And um, yeah, just finding the balance on, I guess, priorities is really what it comes down to. Just always checking in with my priorities, yeah, just having a lovely partner, because sometimes it is about like you want comfort through money and finances and grand ideas and nice villas and all of these things, and sometimes like the cost of that in the moment could be like sacrificing time in life with family and it's just like, well, that's, that's too much of a cost. Yeah, you know, to have a partner who's being like you know what, like I'm in a rush for any of these things and they eventually some of it comes, you know. But it's like from my perspective and things that I've been dealing with is, you know, throughout my life is the now of like I can already see the vision. I want it.
Speaker 1:Now it's like this takes seasons yeah it's coming and let's just look at your life now and um I'll tell you this earlier, but it was like it was such a blessing. That was is a breathwork session and to have this moment that came up for me during this breathwork session of like really feeling all the great things, all the gratitude and wonderful people that I have in my life, not just to like think about it, which I do often, but to actually feel it that it just brought me to tears, like joyful tears, happy tears, thankful tears, of like. Oh, my God, this is my life.
Speaker 1:It could be, it could have been anything, but it's just like kids, my wife, my friends, you you know, you're part of this. It's just like the people that really enrich my life to all the things, and like Bali existing and being here and my family and where they are and everything they've given to me in the past and still do to this day. You know all the love and just weeping and I'm just like, oh my God, I just felt like I was going to explode Hence, probably the tears. And then feeling like, oh my God, I just felt like I was going to explode Hence, probably the tears. And then feeling like, why do I deserve all of this? It's like, oh, there's a glimmer of doubt, yeah. And then I don't know what it is. I don't know what these voices are, whether it be intuition or the divine of just being like the mark. There's so much more.
Speaker 1:If you could just open up further. It's like, open up further, like my, oh my god, really, what does that even look like? To open up further, to like these gifts that life wants to bestow on us, if we can just receive this is. This is kind of what we were talking about earlier, just like the effort that I put in and then the effort that you, the universe, nature, whatever is giving as well wants to give to us if we just play our part, which just comes back to love. You know, like this love I have for myself and opening up to a limitless amount of receiving, not taking receiving blows me. It just blows my mind, man, blows my heart up as well. I'm just like, oh, my gosh, okay, and just that's what I've been sitting really pondering the last couple days, because this happened three days ago. I'm just like what, what is it to to open up and receive? And where am I in my life that I'm not, that I can open up a little bit more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was curious. Where did you get to? Where is the space to open up more?
Speaker 1:Well, I haven't had a lot of time to ponder, but now that we're speaking about it, um, I would say that you know this vision that I was talking about earlier. Just like, sometimes opportunities arrive through different situations or people and maybe I'll say no, or I don't have enough time, or I may not answer that message, or, you know, maybe I'm doing something that doesn't really fulfill what my soul is calling for soul and is calling for. Maybe I'll scroll instead, or maybe watch another YouTube video eat, eat something that I shouldn't be eating, that I can feel deep down, I'm just like okay, you've had enough. Mr decadence, you know those moments I would say aren't opening up to the abundance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, cuz I cuz that that energy or that vision could be used elsewhere, which I can feel is calling me Like go do this, go try that. Reach out to that person. Oh, somebody's hitting you up. Answer that one. You know. Those, I feel like, are a few of the little things that could be opening up further. Receiving compliments, receiving gifts, it's all kinds of things, right, like, all of us have our things that we know that speak only to us, and it's those things that like, and that's again the love just like. Go on, that's for you.
Speaker 2:Open it up. You keep saying the love I'm hearing self-love, self-love, self-love, self-love is in what you need, not much more. Self-love is in what you need, not much more. Self-love is fostering relationships that are complementing that training. Self-love is not letting yourself be doom-scrolling on social, but actually just giving yourself perhaps that space, that moment, just to sit with yourself rather than be distracted.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love the way you defined that. I feel like this is coming to an end.
Speaker 2:You defined it love for us, self-love, self-love yeah, well, I I think how we love ourselves as a funny way of reflecting itself in the world, absolutely, and so, yeah, when I think of love, I think it's that, it's a, it's a journey that starts with yourself and reflects itself out and everything else. But everything else is a teacher, and the more in which we, the more in which we do life, the more we learn how to love, and it always comes back to how we show up in the world and is enjoyed in terms of how those who we relate to as well. Mark, thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Thank you, that was so much fun.
Speaker 2:If anybody wanted to reach out, connect in with you. What's the best way?
Speaker 1:Probably through Instagram. It's the only thing that got popping right now. That's actually open. What's your handle At M-A-R-C L-A W-S. I-i? So Mark Law is the second. Perfect. Thank you so much peace.