The University of Life
The University of Life podcast has become my personal collection of fascinating learnings from the people I meet and experiences I have as I explore life and journey deeper in to the space of business mentoring & life coaching.
The University of Life
The University of Life & Eri Kardos.
What if love isn’t something you promise once, but a practice you return to — again and again?
In this episode, I sit down with relationship coach Eri Kardos to explore what it really takes to build lasting connection in modern relationships. We talk about trust, triggers, communication, and the courage it takes to grow alongside someone, not just love who they were when you met, but who they’re becoming today.
We get into the difference between therapy and coaching, how somatic work helps you move from theory into practice, and why relationships thrive when you bring more honesty, structure, and compassion to the table.
Eri shares practical tools you can use tonight, how to calm your nervous system in the middle of conflict, ask better questions, and build small daily rituals that create safety and depth over time. We also explore how boundaries, consent, and evolving agreements can transform not just your relationship, but how you love.
This one’s a grounded, heart-opening conversation about what it really means to love with awareness, not perfectly, but intentionally.
If this resonates, share it with someone who believes in love that grows with you, not just love that stays the same.
If ever you'd like to connect, please don't hesitate to connect via my website www.jamiewhite.com.
I am always open to feedback, reflections, guest / subject recommendations and anything else that might come up.
Thank you for listening, Jamie x
So, Ari, welcome to the University of Life.
SPEAKER_02:Hi! Hey! I'm so excited to be here.
SPEAKER_00:You are someone that I have found myself describing so many times. I'm like you have to know about this woman, Erie. She is okay, so she's like a relationship therapist, but simultaneously she actually opens herself up to multiple relationships all at the same time.
SPEAKER_03:This is true.
SPEAKER_00:And sometimes people people are like, oh, you know, you like only learn from those that you aspire to, let's say. And so some monogamous types would be like, what? The idea of working with a relationship therapist that it's that's open, that sounds a little bit controversial. But for me, I'm like, no, no, no, you're missing the point. She's so dedicated to her work that she's going through multiple relationships with all sorts of different people and learning all the different ways relationships show up all the time.
SPEAKER_02:This is true.
SPEAKER_00:Because I kind of find you find a monogamous relationship therapist who will no doubt have a bias to how they relate with their partner. And over years and years and years, those ideas kind of solidify. Whereas with you, if you're with somebody every other time, every relationship is bringing up new wounds, new blocks, new issues, and new attributes.
SPEAKER_02:Everybody's so different. It's like why go into an ice cream shop and only have one flavor when you could sample so many. If that's your thing.
SPEAKER_00:And you can have sprinkles and crunchy little chocolates on top.
SPEAKER_02:And sometimes you just love chocolate, that's all you want. Is the chocolate ice cream, it's your go-to, and that's okay.
SPEAKER_00:But even before the openist, for me, what I found is that like to be working with couples, and and this is kind of my idea, so please correct it. But like to be working with couples, it's really hard, I imagine, as a therapist, not to kind of project your ideals onto the couple.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think that's a big piece. So let me first correct that. That's important to know. I am a relationship coach, and and there is a difference, and I consciously chose that.
SPEAKER_00:Tell me the difference first and foremost.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So I so my background is in sexual psychology, and I have a degree in that. But then when it comes to certifications and the trainings and what you need to go through, you can go the therapist route and get a degree in therapy, and it's amazing. I really recommend it for those who are called to it. It's a very stringent set of uh studies and and being over have all of your work oversought by other professional therapists, and there's certain tests you have to pass, and like it's very stringent. And then there's also coaching, which is what a lot of therapists are starting to do that is a branch and they do both, and they can put on their coaching hat or they can put on their therapist hat. When they're wearing their therapist hat, they have to abide by certain laws and regulations, and a lot of them can only practice in certain states or certain areas of the world. Whereas when you're coaching, you have a lot more freedom and flexibility. You can charge differently, you can speak your opinion instead of withholding it all the time. Either way, either way, I really recommend that if you're drawn towards helping people, especially around coaching or therapy, that you do a lot of work yourself and that you're and that you're still being mentored and seen like all of your work over or seen by somebody else who's been more experienced. So I have a mentor that I go to to review my cases, even though I'm a coach and that's not required, right? I am a certified coach. I went through a program, so I have my own set of standards I need to abide to, and I've committed to certain ethics, right? And I practice confidentiality for all my clients, but it's just a different way of showing up and how I use the tools. Right now I'm deep in learning around about um IFS, internal family systems therapy. And I'm in a chapter right now that's talking about biases of therapists and how we they show up with their clients. And I'm like, yeah, it's just, it's so true. We're human. We're all human. And how do we have that awareness of our own, our own traumas, our own stories, our own experiences, and keep that separate from what we're doing with our clients. So that's a huge piece of the big work that I think is lacking in in coaching programs and in people who, you know, you can just say you're a coach now. And that's another big difference. A therapist has to go through a program be certified. A coach, you can just wake up one morning and say, I'm a coach. And there's a million coaches, especially in Bali. You can throw a stone and hit five coaches at once, you know, the ricochet off of them all. But just because somebody says they're a coach doesn't mean they've been trained. It doesn't mean they're good. It doesn't mean they really understand how to do this work. Um, they may just be really good at marketing, or they may just feel like enough people have told them that they're good a good person to talk to. So I really recommend that people are picky. Just because you're a coach or a therapist doesn't mean you're good, a good one.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And so just on those definitions, is there an endpoint definition of like if you work with a therapist, here's what you'll do. If you work with a coach, here's what you'll do.
SPEAKER_02:Great. So it I think it really depends on people's styles. But therapy, there's there's so many different types of therapy. There's so many different types of coaching. I think you well, I would recommend if you're gonna work with a coach or a therapist, you find one that you resonate with, and then you find out like what is our end goal? Where are we going? What are the usual results we have with clients so that you can know ahead of time. Talk therapy specifically can take a long time. You can be doing going at this for months, years, and it can be really powerful depending on the modality. There's so many cool mixes. Like I work with a lot of other therapists, like I'll partner with them, especially bringing modalities like EMDR and IFS for trauma for both of these. If you're not familiar with those, check them out. They're cool. Um and then with coaching, a lot of times coaches have more of a set program. So it'll be like, we're gonna work together for three to six months, maybe a year, and it's gonna be more accountability and usually a higher touch. So with a therapist, you're gonna see them whenever you go into the office when you schedule, like maybe it's once a week, maybe it's once every other week. With a coach, most of the time, it's more of a program and more intensity. So you're gonna be doing training videos. Like with my clients, I've got a training video library. I'm sending them on dates like that. I've designed, I become the dating dominatrix. So I'm like, okay, here's what you're gonna do. Jamie, you're in charge of the date this week with your partner. Here's what you're gonna say, here's what you're gonna do, here's the activity you're gonna do. And you can check in with me if you need support. And you're gonna learn these tools. And then you're also gonna have me for WhatsApp support. So when things are hitting the fan, real life, and you're and you're like, whoa, I don't have to do, you've got me in your pocket, which is really fun and more real life transformational than you usually get with a therapist because there's different ways that people show up.
SPEAKER_00:Harry, sorry, this is like wow. Like to kick off into this, you've like schooled in terms of like the philosophy of coaching and the philosophy of therapy. And um and it's kind of one of those questions you could ask 10 coaches and you could ask 10 therapists, and you get 20 different answers. Yeah. Um, but for for me, like when I kind of feel into that, what I think is yeah, therapy, there's a very strict linear approach to working with somebody and it is a clock-in, clock out, and very much, hey, let's just talk things through.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Whereas in a coaching kind of container, what we're talking about is here, let's go all in.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Let's go all in for a period and let's let's work through this by any and all means. And so, you know, we're gonna talk things out, but I'm also gonna share my reflections. We're gonna challenge you, we're gonna set goals, and we're gonna really, really shake from every angle on this.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. And I'm a somatic coach, so on top of that, I'm like, and we're gonna get in your body. So we're gonna, you know, if you're doing an in-person session with me, there may be some like depending, but we'll do a lot of like checking into you, tuning into you. If it's around intimacy, there might be some consensual clothing on touch, you know, and and looking at like how do we use our bodies. If it's around handling conflict, maybe we're gonna get in a pillow fight. Like we're we're gonna find fun ways to release tension and be in our bodies instead of just staying up here, which this is a wonderful tool, but it's just one of the many tools that we have.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's so so I so I love relational coaching because I really believe at the very heart of it is your self-love, is your self-care, is your self-respect. And so generally speaking, like when people are coming to me, they'd be like, Here, you know, what's your kind of background? Where do you kind of sit most? And I'm like, well, one of the areas I absolutely love is relational coaching. Um, because it shows up in absolutely everything. You know, how you love yourself reflects it in absolutely everything. And for me, when people are coming to me about like their business and they're like, you know, I'm not I'm having trouble ch charging my worth, it's like, ah yes, because your self-worth is out of whack. Let's dig into that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um but yeah, then there's you. And in the relationship sphere, as I said, like digging into all the biases, those for me are like almost potholes because I kind of find like either our fantastic, you talked about therapists and they have ideas, art processes, and they lean heavily into them.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But generally speaking, it's the coaches that will take more blended approaches.
SPEAKER_02:In general.
SPEAKER_00:In general, and of course, with our preference for who we're working towards. But um with you, the thing that I found so different was it was like, oh yeah, yeah. So I'm in the relationship space. I'm not in the therapy, I'm in the coaching, so I'll, you know, I'll come at it from a whole load of different angles. And I don't have the bias of a single relationship.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I actually am constantly experimenting in new relational dynamics so I can challenge my ideas, I can challenge my beliefs, and I can show up all the more unbiased for my clients as a result.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. And I really don't believe it's like monogamy is is less than some form of ethical non-monogamy. I think there's so many different styles around the world. And it's like, how can we find what's right for you? And I think that just experimenting and and the way that I'm constantly learning, whether it's learning through relationship or learning because I'm working with a therapist or a coach, or because I'm learning through attending trainings and reading books, it's like there's so much out there, and we get to have fun and play and grow and then share it. Like, how cool is that?
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's probably one of the more like say simple things to say, but actually challenging in reality because like a relationship is is so personal. However, it's like it's commented by everybody family, friends, society. Every movie will tell the ideal romantic story.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so it could be very, very hard to build your own kind of relationship dynamic. And it can be very easy to find yourself in the ideal Disney-like romantic scenario and think and actually question yourself, really looking yourself in the mirror and be like, hey, I have everything that Disney says I should, but I don't feel happy. I feel disconnected. In actual fact, I feel pretty imprisoned.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And I I think there's a lot of people that perhaps even even feel that, but would be so afraid to share that because A, like, you know, what does that say about the relationship and what others might say then as a result? So yeah, I'm like, that's why I love this space. And that's why I'm really and like your your kind of self-introduction there is so testament to why you'd want to chat to you because you take this work so seriously. And it is really serious. I think, I think the reason perhaps why most people would would stay trapped rather than opening themselves up to work on this is because it's so personal. It's so vulnerable.
SPEAKER_02:It's so personal, it's so vulnerable, and it takes a lot of courage and it's so anti-everything that society teaches us to do. It's like, you know, I love asking people the question: how many happy, healthy, long-term couples do you know? Whether, like, however you want to define that, what is happy to you, what is healthy to you, what is long-term to you. And the reality is that I've asked this question to thousands of people around the world, and the answer has been over 90%, almost probably all except for two classes. Ever, ever. We just don't know. We don't have models, but we think that everybody else is in a happy, healthy, long-term relationship. We didn't learn how to be in these relationships. We learned pretty much, I mean, most of us learn pretty crummy models through our parents, through school. So it's like, how do we then overcome that and the social shaming of, you know, oh, I want to work with a coach or a therapist? There's always like, oh, I'm so sorry. Things must be really broken, right?
SPEAKER_00:You know, as you were sharing that, what I was thinking of is like the accepted are the tolerance, the universal tolerance of relationships should be difficult.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:A relationship be hard. Oh, you know, the stress in relationship, oh sure, that's it, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Or it should be easy. It's the one or the other. It's like relationships should be like Disney films, easy right off into the sunset, or they should be like a battlefield and there's no in between.
SPEAKER_00:Sorry, yeah. The general ideal is that a relationship should be easy or it's not working. But the general facts behind the scenes are the relationship is hard and challenging, but you don't really want to speak to that because it should be easy.
SPEAKER_02:Right. And then it's like, oh God, I'm doing something wrong.
SPEAKER_00:And then if, oh, if you're talking to a relationship therapist or a coach, my god, you but you must be on the edge of divorce, then I'm sorry. And it's like, no, no, no, we're doing this for fun. Yeah, we're doing this for more enjoyment, or one can, but the simple suggestions suggest so much that's hard to speak about.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Can I share something nice for you?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That question, like, you know, how many people do you know in relationships that are actually happy?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, when I've heard couples talking about open relationships, it's like, yeah, but is there anyone that's actually in a happy open relationship? I have been all around the world and people say, Oh yeah, yeah, Harry and Jamie. Like the brand ambassadors for open relating, which is like quite something.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. And I I'm gonna I want to clarify something because we're weird. We're very weird in many ways, right? You know this already. But we don't even say that we are practicing open relating. What we say is we practice conscious relating. Because for us, it's been we tune into who are we as a foundation? Our our couple, like, you know, we're married, we've been together for this will be we get married every year if we choose to.
SPEAKER_00:It's so cool. By the way, if you follow them on Instagram, they don't just get married every year. They have a different kind of a different kind of marriage. So you've had your Indian wedding, you've had your like chic abundant wedding, you've done your romantic little trip away. It's very cute.
SPEAKER_02:Got married on a on a cruise ship last year off Turks and Caicos. We've gotten married on top of the world's tallest uh or biggest Buddhist uh temple before. It's just like all over the place. We have fun. But we tune in sometime during the calendar year and say, do we want to get married? Do we want to still be together? Where our commitment is not until death do us part. It's so long as we're serving each other's highest good and growth. And through that, we have a lot of hard conversations of who are you today? Who am I today? And who are we, and what is being called forth so we can continue growing. And sometimes we've been monogamous. Sometimes I've been like when the kids were little, we've had two kids and they're amazing. And when the kids were little, I was momogamous and I just wanted to be focused on being a mom. And then there were times when, like, once Jamin was celibate and he just sort of kept his sexual energy for himself. Another point, I was celibate. We've been, he's been monogamous with me while I've not been monogamous, right? It's like really fascinating. And then we've also been in multiple relationships. He and I each have been in a relationship with another person for six years. Like he had a partner for about six years on and off, and I had a partner for about six years on and off.
SPEAKER_00:Do you ever date people together?
SPEAKER_02:We've never so far, we have not yet dated somebody together. Who knows? Uh, we're starting to get into new territory together that we're exploring, but um, you know, and we, if you're familiar with erotic blueprints, like ways you experience pleasure, he and I have vastly different historical ways of experiencing pleasure. It's kind of like, you know, like five love languages. We're very different in five love languages. But when it comes to erotic blueprints, like how we want to experience pleasure is just super different. And so we found that in open relating in ethical non-monogamy, we get to have our natural ways of connecting with people very easily met. And then we get to come back and bring the juiciness back into our marriage, back into our relationship and connect in new ways there and celebrate each other because we have that freedom and that safety that we really focus on to create a strong foundation for us.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so what's kind of going on in my head, right, is that so much of certainly how I was brought up to be a man was to be like uh consistent and to be stable, right? Um, but but what I recognize actually is like the more I get my feet on the ground, like the more money I make, the more I establish myself, the more I want to explore, the more I want to actually experiment and see how I can do life differently. And and what I recognize is that yeah, as you progress in life, this fluidity comes about. Um but oftentimes that's very challenged by a relational dynamic. You know, you come into a relationship and it's oh, I fell in love with this and I fell in love with that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And there's almost this anchoring to who perhaps people were when they first connected. But the fact of the matter is there's nothing probably more complementing to growth than coming into connection.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And and then there's just life, which full stop is all the time teaching you. And so what I'm hearing from you is that you've given yourselves the freedom to flow with that growth that comes from relating.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And it's not consistent, it's not static in actual fact, it's highly variable.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:I love that. Like sometimes like to be in God almighty. I think in Ireland, right? A woman by choice could not be celibate. It was legal uh for a man to rape his wife. There wasn't it wasn't even considered a rape, actually. It was just a game.
SPEAKER_02:It was her duty.
SPEAKER_00:It was her duty. And uh Christ almighty God, the ideals of it of old. You know, the way sometimes in wellness people are like, if we only went back to our roots, it's like selectively, some of the stuff was barbaric.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Um but yeah, what I what I I recognize in certainly, let's say, some of my experiences or some other experiences that I've noticed, there's this clinging to the past, yeah, and this idea of who you were when we met, versus what I'm hearing from yourself is this this constant check-in, this not, hey, till death till we part. So we're both gonna kind of get a bit lazy. It's like, no, no. We're gonna check in with ourselves regularly, and we're gonna give ourselves the freedom to explore how we're both evolving. Um that that's love at a I would say a very challenging level, you know, because it's easy to love what you know. Yes, it's very hard to just surrender to a love of what you don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, that's so true. It's so true.
SPEAKER_00:So actually, sorry, so it's not easy, it is hard.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, it's very hard. It's very hard. I mean, and it's not for everyone. It's not like I'm walking around being like, oh, everyone should do what we're doing. No, this is like deep end of the pool wild stuff. I, if you are a huge communication geek and you want to really like test all your communication tools, and if you love personal development and you are very self-aware and probably are on some sort of spiritual path and getting some connection with something bigger than yourself, then then perhaps you should try something like this. But it is wild and it is not easy. And we we don't maybe from the outside, people are like, oh, you make it look easy. I'm like, oh, let me just be totally honest with you right now. I'm so sorry I wasn't telling you more of what was going on in the in the shit show behind the scenes. Like, it can be a shit show, and that's just the reality of relationships, but we don't talk about it. Like Jamin and I have a therapist. We have an amazing therapist that we meet with regularly because we have all the tools, but you can't see your own mess when you're in it. And we still have traumas and we still have triggers because we're human, right? And that's it. And so now we get to lean in and say, How are we showing up in this? And it's much easier to just say, screw it, I'm out. And uh, we have consistently at least uh none of us have chosen we're out at the same time, right? Sometimes I might be like, uh, this is not working. I don't know what we're doing. And I'm like, part of me just wants to like be done with this, and a part of me wants to stay, and then but he's like, okay, but the bigger part of him is staying, you know, and then we'll switch sometimes, and and we'll just be like, what's going on? And our sixth year, our six sixth marriage was it was it was just really, really rough. We were in a tough spot, and we're like, I don't even know if we want to do this anymore. We've got kids, and that's an amazing glue, but maybe we need to go through a relationship and just be co-parents or something. I don't know. So we decided to do some personal work for um, I think it was like a month. We worked with some individual support systems and really looked at our own stuff and figured out what are the stories that I'm caring about myself and about him and about the relationship that aren't serving us anymore. And he did the same. And then we went off to this volcano in Bali and just with two of our close friends as witnesses, and we created a relationship death ritual. And we just killed off the old version of us so we had more spaciousness to create something new. And I love how Esther Perel says, in your life, you'll be in many different relationships, perhaps with the same person. And that is Jamin and I. Like we are constantly like finding out like who am I, who am I dating? Who am I married to? Okay, who are you today? And how are we tracking each other as we're growing? Because we're very different people, very different people, but we have similar passions and we really want to keep showing up, you know. And Jamin will do uh it used to drive me crazy. I'm getting used to it now, but he can enjoy plant medicine from time to time. And we'll go. I remember one time he went to meet with ayahuasca for several days in a row. And I'm at home with the kids. I'm like, yes, go, babe, go do this. And he goes the first night and he has this deep moment. And the medicine was like, your big work is to go home and love your wife and love your children, like really love them. And he's like, Are you sure? And she's like, Go home and love your wife and love your kids. So he comes back and I was pissed. I'm like, you don't get it. You missed some important message about your screwed upness, and you need to just go back and work on this. I sent him back. And again, he sat with the medicine, and she was like, No, your big work in this lifetime is to learn how to love your wife and love your kids. And this love thing and staying with yourself is going to be your big work. And he came home and it hit me. I'm like, that is the big work. That is the big work of learning how to love ourselves, learning how to love our partner, learning how to love our kids, even when it's hard. This is the big work. There's no greater thing that I can find.
SPEAKER_00:I sorry, I I love that you're sharing this, right? And and you're you're actually speaking to probably at the heart of our very connection over the last few years is I've taken huge risk, sorry, huge inspiration from you both in this regard, because most other couples don't wear their wounds, they hide them away. And that narrative that plays out in Disney that everything should be easy and there should just be this moment you fall in love and things just flow forward from there. Yeah. And it's completely ill-serving. I would argue that so many really good couples break up through confusion and misunderstanding.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And and that's really sad. You know, if so many couples are running around putting on this performance trying to keep up with the Joneses, in actual fact, if they were only more real and real, the likes of which you just shared there, I think so many other couples will feel a lot better about themselves.
SPEAKER_03:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so many less issues would come from that. But this idea that, like, yeah, no, a relationship is probably going to be one of the most hard, challenging things you'll do. It will also be one of the most rewarding things.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:But lean into the hard instead of thinking like the heart is a red flag.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's like I I look at this obviously so much therapy and so much coaching is kind of leaking its way out into social media, and everybody's looking for the four points in this. People talk about red flags.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:And it's like, would you please look in the mirror? Whatever red flags you may be bringing up in your partner, chances are there's a correlation between what's going on inside yourself.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Everybody's pointing the finger at their partners or at somebody else or other couples or stuff, and few people want to just literally hold up a big mirror.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And that's kind of what I love about relational working, is it is a big, big mirror.
SPEAKER_02:It's a huge mirror. And and it's like all these little trigger points that all these little trigger points that you come across in these relational dynamics, it's old wounds. It's old wounds that you've had for well before you met your partner. And you guys can choose to continue triggering each other and being poison and just repeating the same feelings from the past. Or you can learn the right tools and you can choose to be medicine for each other. Like, how cool is that that we could be medicine for each other?
SPEAKER_00:Wow. That's I I I like you brought up plant medicine. And plant medicine comes up every second episode on this podcast.
SPEAKER_02:Only every second, huh?
SPEAKER_00:We edit out the ones in between. But I I would argue, like, there's, you know, we talk about like grandmother ayahuasca medicine. It's like, yeah, but what about your partner? Yeah. Like your partner is the ultimate medicine in that regard. Because the fact of the matter is that as the relationship starts to progress, they see through all your bullshit.
SPEAKER_02:Totally.
SPEAKER_00:And it becomes almost impossible for them not to present you with said bullshit. Yes. Um, and at a lot of times as well, everything inside you doesn't want to hear it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I love, I think a really interesting thing in relational coaching is that like just how easy the therapist's job or the coach's job can be at times when it's just pointing at the obvious that neither wants to admit or accept.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And when it's said from a third party, there's a much greater penetration.
SPEAKER_02:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I I call myself like the greatest Google Translate because all I do is sit here and be like, here's what you're really saying that your partner can't hear. Let me let me translate this for you and let me translate this for you. And that moment that it can really be received, like the truth that the person is holding can really be received. It's it's it can give so much freedom because you can already feel it. Like our nervous systems already know. We just pretend a lot. We already hide so much, we put up so many masks. I almost from the day we start dating, it's like we're trying to either impress some of this person or we're projecting what we think this person is, and then we're trying to hold them to the projection. Instead of creating a safe space for us to be real and authentic and be loved for our messiness.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so that's what I'm kind of hearing from you. It's like, yeah, there are all these ideas of how we think we're meant to show up in relationship. And what I'm kind of more so hearing from you is you're like, screw all that. Just show up as you are, unfiltered, and let's let's connect on that level.
SPEAKER_02:But learn how to do that in a way that's compassionate. So yeah, I think that for some people, they hear, okay, I just need to be myself. And most people don't know how to be themselves, first of all. And also you need to learn how to create a safe space for you and your partner to be yourselves and hear each other and receive each other and be with what comes up when you see your partner unfiltered. So it's like sharing your truth with compassion. It's like, here I am, here's the vulnerable feeling. It's not like I I decided that I um I need to be traveling, I need to see somebody else, right? It's like I need to see somebody else. That's my truth, right? If you say it like that, your partner's probably gonna be like, whoa, and all of their triggers and traumas and stories are gonna come up. But if you can lead from the vulnerable feelings and learn how to create that safe space where there's full presence with each other and we're dropped into our hearts and not into our defensive, protective modes and saying, you know, there's this part of me that's feeling lonely or unmet. And I want to explore what that, like how I can be with those parts of myself. I'm not really sure what to do. I'd like to have these tougher conversations with you. Maybe it's about how we can change our intimacy or how we might want to explore with other people. I don't know. And it feels scary.
SPEAKER_00:Uh yeah, because what I'm hearing from is this other side of relating, which is this expectation that a partner should be absolutely everything to you.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:And they they, of course, are never going to. And the burden of that for a partner is ridiculous.
SPEAKER_02:Well, that becomes codependency, then. We're getting, it's like, let's be careful.
SPEAKER_00:And so the security of the freedom, what you're saying is like, hey, look, I love you. And I recognize that you fill my cup in these areas.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And I don't really want to go about life with empty cups in this other sphere. And I don't want to put the pressure on you to perform out of your norm and try and fill those other cups. So perhaps I need, and in your case, which I thought was really interesting, is I actually need some celibacy. I need some time for me to fill my own cups. Or perhaps it's like, hey, look, I recognize what our relationship is and I love it. First and foremost, this is the priority, but in a superficial way, or perhaps even not a little bit more, I'd like to fill some of those other cups. And I'd like to do it not in betrayal to this relational dynamic.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because I I think look what you're what I'm obviously what we're going through is like communication in that in that regard. It's that I think a lot of people will find themselves imprisoned. A lot of people will find themselves um without that vocabulary and think things are black and white. It's like, oh, well, if you know, if all my cups aren't being filled, then there must be something wrong with this relationship. I must go elsewhere. And it's like, unfortunately, no one's ever gonna fight all those cups.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And and and I I I there's a part of me that wants to say fact. I could say it in my experience.
SPEAKER_02:But but I And I mean, like, even in like, I mean, I want to be careful, it could be in anything, even in Manana and You can choose monogamy and just recognize there are other cups outside of anything to do with sexuality that your partner's not going to be able to fill. Maybe it's you have a deep passion for health and fitness and the other person just doesn't. Okay. So how do you balance that and still get your needs met? Right. So there's so many different ways that people are trying to be everything for everyone. And it's like, how do you create your own safety and take care of your needs in a way that also lets the person know that we can do this in a way that feels safe for both of us without it, without it hurting our relationship?
SPEAKER_00:And you know, like what's coming up for me when you're sharing this, right? And like to say the different cups being filled is there's quite a one-dimensional perspective on cheating.
SPEAKER_02:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And it's such a like, you know, the oh, well, if there's cheating in a relationship, that's the relationship done. And cheating is is cheating having sex with somebody else? Is cheating kissing somebody else? Is cheating having a bit of an inappropriate conversation with somebody else? Is cheating filling a cup that's not been filled? Like, where do you draw where does one draw the line? Because my gut instinct is that actually that that definition is up for grabs. It's not a universal definition. It's actually one that perhaps that's where a couple starts in terms of communicating. It's like, hey, what is cheating here? Yeah. And my gut instinct is it's kind of when you start going beyond uh the lines of truth, when a level of manipulation starts kicking in where you share a different truth to what's actually at play. And that could be in the simplest thing. You could find perhaps a cup, a partner actually finds themselves cheating, playing tennis with somebody else, filling that cup, but not actually being true about what's going on.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. I think integrity is a huge piece of love and figuring out how to love in a healthy way. Integrity with yourself. If you're noticing there's a little bit of ickiness to the charge, the energy that you have if you're withholding information, or if you're changing things slightly, or if you're outright changing the story, right? There's so many different ways that we lie to ourselves and we lie to our partners and lie to the world. Um actually, my my other partner, he's very, very passionate about integrity and how you show up. And he was telling me this statistic recently that there was this big research study done. And I think it was something like the average adult lies uh 10 times in about 10 minutes. Something like that. I need to find those exact statistics. But it's these little lies. It could be something like, How are you doing? And you're like, I'm good. And you're inside you know you're not.
SPEAKER_00:Well, when I first ventured into relational coaching, there was this line that really hurt hearing, which was that they say nobody lies more to anybody else than the person they love the most.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And and what I also noticed as well when I kind of heard that is like there's so much of like not me.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Like there's such an instinctive resistance and reflection of like, that's not me.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And like relationship coaching was really difficult for me in terms of recognizing, like, oh, you have a distrust of your partner. And it's like, wait, one second, no, I trust my partner. It's like, well, sometimes you'll tell a story a little bit differently because you're afraid of how they'll react.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:It's like, and that's not just just trust, Jamie, that's manipulation. I'm like, oh no, no, no, I'm not a manipulator. It's such a big charge. Such a charge word. It's like, actually, find me anybody that's not manipulating at some point throughout the day. I never knew that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I never knew that I actually know that's at play so much.
SPEAKER_02:So much. And and it's a lot of times it's good intention, right? Like, I don't want to hurt you or I don't want you to feel bad, right? And it sounds so nice, but the fact is that means that I don't trust you to handle your own emotions. And so I need to keep this from you. And I'm how many of us would much rather just know and then deal with whatever the truth is than find out that we've been being lied to.
SPEAKER_00:So that's the the interesting thing that so much of this is good intentioned.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's like, oh, I'm, you know, no, no, I'm caring for you. It's like, no, you're not trusting me, and you're manipulating circumstances. And where this is coming from at the heart of it is a lack of self-worth. You don't think that you're worthy of love beyond this point. Yeah. That's your wound. Like to understand this has taken me years. And and I I hate admitting that because at the heart of it, it's actually very simple stuff. But why is it so um so almost like societally covered up?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's like I would argue there's a there's a superiority that I see in a lot of monogamous couples, right? That like they're doing the Disney thing, and that's the way things have been done forever, and they're so f fantastic and grandiose. And I'll be like, well, actually, why don't you sit down with a relationship coach for a little while? Because what you'll find is that you're not monogamous, you're actually open, but you're unconsciously open. And what you're really doing is highly abusing yourselves at a deep level, but you're pretending you're not, and you're also reflecting this high superiority amongst everybody else. And that that is that like when I just said that that's highly offensive.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But if you actually sat down and started analyzing it, I'd say it's hard to find a couple that doesn't fall into that suit.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And I think it depends on the definitions. And, you know, for me, my my book is written about relationship agreements. So it's how do we actually get clear on what are our agreements? Just like you're talking about. I'm dying to get to this. So um, so with relationship agreements, we're talking about how do we talk about who we actually are, which is what you're getting to right here is like, where is that line? Like, where is a line where things are cheating versus it's okay? And that's so cultural. It's so cultural. You know, I grew up in a very conservative Christian home. And in our in our home, the idea of if I think about somebody else with lustful thoughts, I've already cheated. I've already sinned. I'm already going to hell for this.
SPEAKER_00:Like did were you to beat yourself as well?
SPEAKER_02:I did not have to beat myself, but my shame beat myself up. Okay. Right? My guilt and my shame, my Catholic school girl guilt and shame really has been a burden, it's been a weight my whole life. And so being with that and loving her and loving that peace and saying, no, what is my truth? What is my truth and not what it was told to me? And do I really think that if I look at somebody else and desire them or celebrate their body or celebrate the feeling I get with them, is that really how I feel that that is not okay? And in some cultures, that's not okay. But I would don't want to be partnered with somebody who feels that way because then I would have to dim myself or pretend or put that on. So instead, for Jamin and I, we just call out like, where are we? Who are we today? What is this line for us? And as long as we're in the same agreement where nobody's getting hurt, we're consenting to this agreement, then that's ours. And then if we want to change it, we get to change it. It's just ours. And as long as we don't act out of accordance with that agreement before we change it, it's all good. And that's our definition of cheating. You can still be practicing ethical nominogamy or polyamory, whatever your flavor is, and cheat. Like you can still break agreements within ethical nominogamy. So it's really about what is what is the agreement between this, these two people or these three people, or however many people are joining together to create this. And then have fun and explore and enjoy it until the point when you feel that charge of like, oh, a part of me wants to like not tell the truth, a part of me wants to withhold some information. That's when we need to look at it again and have that crucial conversation of a part of me no longer agrees with our agreement. A part of me wants to try something different. Are you open to talking about this? Are you open to exploring it?
SPEAKER_00:I think what the unfortunate thing is I'm hearing you is and I and recognizing what you said earlier that this is so much work. Is that for so many people, they'd be like, here, look, wait, so I I we're busy enough with the kids, we're busy enough with the family family, busy enough with the like our work, yeah, that there's just no time.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And I think that this there's no time becomes a justification for getting lazy or getting settling.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And it may feel you know great to be like, oh, we just don't have time. But a year later, when you're going through a horrific divorce, yeah, it's like, well, maybe we should have thought a little bit ahead of the game in this one.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And it doesn't need to take a lot of time. Like I almost all you know, I mentioned earlier the dates in my program. Almost all the dates can be done in 30 minutes or less from home.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:For busy parents and for I work with a lot of executives, and it's like they don't have a lot of time. Time is the the greatest value, right? So it's how do we pack in the greatest value into this time so you don't have excuses for why you aren't why you and your partner aren't create like creating what you want? Because it's those little deposits that add up. And if you're not making those deposits, you're making withdrawals over and over again because conflict is real. We're going to get in conflict in relationships, and most of us didn't learn how to be in conflict. So it's definitely gonna take a withdrawal from this relationship bank account.
SPEAKER_00:So I'm kind of hearing like Buzzwords and notes here, and I my I got really excited. I was like, actually, Ari.
SPEAKER_01:Jamie.
SPEAKER_00:And you know, there's there's one thing that's so uh uh obvious about this is that like you're dedicated to this life. Like your work is kind of like a handy byproduct. Yeah, it's like your highest priority is relating, and your clients get to do well as a byproduct. It's kind of like me.
SPEAKER_03:It's so true.
SPEAKER_00:I love personal development. I would sit through podcasts, I'd learn lessons, I'd work with all sorts of different coaches first and foremost. It's like that's what I want to do because I find huge freedom and exploration from it. I always tell my clients when they're bed to sign up with me, I'm like, hey, you get to benefit on this as a byproduct. So I'm on this mad journey, yeah. And I'll share everything that I'm learning with you to your benefit benefit. Yeah. I get this from you, and hence why it's so worthwhile. Um but in this, I'm kind of like, you know, when you what I find is that like the more you journey into a space, the more you recognize the easier things that you can do. Like I think at the start of a journey, we overcomplicate things. We think we need to do so much, and then experiences are are are are sometimes teaches us that no, actually, here are the little things that you can do that will bring about the biggest return.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And as I kind of tune into you on this one, I'm like, okay. So let's say somebody is either not in a relationship but wanting to relate, or they are in a relationship and they want to do better in that space, they want to enjoy more. Are there any like little things that actually serve a great impact that you're like, do you know what? If you actually just did these few things, this would be so st so standing to you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, sure. I would, you know, I'm uh I love science and research. I like I'm a I'm a bit of a nerd. Uh I think that's I think that's why I really that's why I came from the tech industry. I think I was like, oh techies are such nerds and I love it. And there's a lot of kinky people there too, which I also love. So when I look at when I look at data, and I'm gonna go straight to the Gottman Institute. I love their research. They're world's leading researchers on couples. And I I think, you know, blowing old stories out of the water, I think a lot of people still believe that love and relationships is a fluffy subject. Like, oh, you just have to figure it out. But it's not. We have so much science, we have so much research around it. We, I know the Gottmans can tell with over 92% accuracy if a couple will stay together long term just by listening to how they speak to each other on a certain topic for like two minutes. Wild. It's wild. So they took all this data and they said, okay, how could we, like, what is one thing we could change so that the next generation grows up and can be in healthy, happy, long-term relationships? And the number one thing was teaching children how to be with their emotions. That's it. How do you teach children how to be with their emotions? And I'm gonna go out on a limb and say most of us didn't learn how to be with our emotions as kids. So even if you don't have kids now, you get to start reparenting yourself now and learning how to be with your emotions and learning how to coach yourself when you're feeling triggered, and learning how to notice what are the stories playing out in my head that are just stories that I keep getting sucked back into because I didn't get my needs met as a child, but now I'm an adult and I can meet my own needs and I can take care of myself and I can love myself. And I can notice, like I love their emotion coaching. I'll do a little bit of teaching for a moment. I love their emotion coaching. Uh, and it's four easy steps. And the first one is just witness what happens. So the other day, actually it was a little while ago now, I was, you know, here in Bali driving my motorbike, and I came around a corner and this other bike came flying around and almost hit me, and it stopped this far from my knee. I'm like, oh my God. And in my family growing up, you know, if something happened, the family philosophy was it's okay, you're okay, keep going. So I should have kept going and just run that old programming, but I wouldn't have been a safe driver. And I know how trauma gets stored in our bodies. So I've been putting like just storing trauma for later on. And I bet I would have gotten a headache or a shoulder ache or a neck ache later on. Instead, I know what to do with that. So I pull over to the side of the road and I do some somatic breathing practices to come back into my body and let go of some of the charge. And if you're weirded out by that, going to a bathroom stall, it's very easy to do. And then I just did this emotion coaching. So first I witnessed what happened. Driving around a corner, almost got hit by a bike. Second, I'm gonna name the emotions. Oh, I felt surprised and scared and glad it wasn't worse. Third, I'm gonna empathize. How do you empathize with what just happened? Well, I look for when in my life have I felt the same emotions or similar emotions. When have I felt surprised and scared and glad it wasn't worse? And before I could even remember a memory, my hands did this and they grabbed on my neck and I was like, what is going on? And then my brain caught up to it. And I was like, oh yeah, when I was 18, I was in a car accident and I got whiplash. And I remember feeling surprised and scared and glad it wasn't worse. Whoa. My my body remembered the trauma's still there. I just didn't know how to let it go back then. So then I get to look at the fourth step is what do I need? What do I need in this moment? I'm like, okay, I want to call Jamin or Bestie and just vent and share the story of what just happened, verbally process what just happened. And I live in Bali, I'm gonna get a massage. So I gotta have massage booked. And I'm releasing not just potential trauma from what just happened, but also the old stuff because I have this awareness. I'm reparenting myself and I'm being with my emotions and I'm not letting them get stored up. And this is so important. So whether you're single or in a partnership, right now start learning how to be with your emotions. It's gonna change so much. And then go learn communication tools, how to really listen to someone, how to really communicate in a way that the other person can hear you. Right. And but this is this is the big work that we all need to do. We all have trauma, like, and that's okay. And that's a big buzzword right now. We all have stuff that happened to us that caused our nervous systems to do this, and we protect ourselves. So, how can we learn how to be with our protectors, our protector parts, and say, whoa, like they're there, they're doing a good job protecting you. And maybe they they don't need to work so hard now that you're an adult. How can you help them relax and you can take care of the part of you that's really hurt inside? And coming forward with that, relationships are amazing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, do you know what as you were saying? There was an initial voice that came up inside me. It's like, wow, this is a lot of time, right? And I no, no, no, like that's just the the initial layer of resistance that comes up. And I think so many people think this, and again, we talked about this a bit as well, like this is your highest priority, so you get stuck into this. But I love that line with regards to meditation that everybody should meditate for 20 minutes a day. And if you don't have 20 minutes a day, you should do it for an hour. Why? Because ultimately speaking, it saves you so much time and it actually improves the quality of your life. And what I'm kind of finding is yeah, I had that old kind of narrative play out for me as well, that if anything happened, I just get on with it. Yeah, I just keep going. But I carry that stress with me forevermore. Yeah, certainly for the day I'm conscious of it. I feel wobbly, I feel shaky, I feel heavy.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um the next day I think it's gone, but no, it's actually just that I've numbed.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so what I'm kind of recognizing is that if we only took the moments that we should, we would feel so much better as time goes forward. But in not, we think it's passing, it's not, we're actually just getting used to the load we're carrying.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and we're not releasing it because we don't learn how to release it. And then we're surprised when we feel like punching a pillow or punching something or screaming and like it needs to release. And that whole process, the emotion coaching that I did for myself, took me 30 seconds to two minutes maximum.
SPEAKER_00:Can I explore something with you? Because what I kind of felt is that that that incident uh brought up what you would call a trigger. It triggered you back to something originally. And I think a lot of people, when they start like scratching the surface into relationship coaching, they're like, Oh, you need to look after my triggers. You need to be conscious of my triggers. And what I'm kind of conscious of in hearing the example that you just shared is that incident triggered you back to a prior incident. The same way in relationships, perhaps if somebody says the wrong thing or something like that, it will trigger them back to an incident.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:And people think that they the triggers are almost like a part of them that they have to live with. And it's like, no. Because what I heard from you is in that example that you shared, that incident triggered a memory back to a much bigger incident. But the way in which you dealt with that incident in the present perhaps actually healed a lot of the issue in the past. And I kind of feel that like a lot of people are saying, Hey, you know, you need to be more sensitive of my triggers. And I kind of think, well, actually, every time something is triggered up, there's an opportunity to heal that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's not something that perhaps should be safeguarded, it's actually something that should be explored and given the time to pass. Because like a lot of people that kind of I feel there's this wearing of symptoms and this wearing of ideals of like I have this condition, I have that condition. And it's like perhaps you do, but you can work through this, and it's a ridiculous thing to put that kind of weight of safeguarding and almost being wrapped up in cutting up cut cotton wool and putting your partner in a position where they're walk walking on broken glass.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That kind of pressure is is crazy. And I kind of feel that you there's a really interesting, let's say, responsibility. Um, which brings me to probably like my favorite line in relationship is it's it's from Jim Rohn. It's I'll do me for you if you do you for me. And I uh I love that. I kind of feel that sometimes we miss out on our responsibility. Our triggers are not our partners' responsibilities. They're not. In actual fact, they're real opportunities for our growth and development.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:And we all are gonna have triggers, and we all are gonna have a trauma response to those triggers, and that's not bad, but we really need to learn how to be with our trauma responses so they don't hurt someone else. And in the past, we would throw those on our parents or our caregivers because we didn't have the agency. And we're still trying to do that. We still throw our tantrums. We just do so through fight, flight, freezing, and fawning. And instead of throwing those tantrums, we get to learn how to create our own safety and be responsible. We have agency now as adults. So instead of saying, you need to take care of my triggers, Jamie, don't screw this up. It's like, it's like, how can I be aware of my triggers? And how can we create a safe environment for me to be growing and healing? And some of these are gonna take a long time to really get to be with. Some of them might be very fast healing. Like we're we can be surprised by what's there, but we need to be curious together and say, how can we create a safe environment? Because also when I get triggered, chances are, if I have done what most humans do, I've attracted a partner that when one of us gets triggered, the other person will be triggered right away. Right? We're triggered by them being triggered. Okay, so now we have an awesome opportunity for both of us to do some big healing work. And this is what my TEDx talk is all about. It's just how do we be with the idea that we're not fighting each other in these triggers? We're fighting old wounds and we can do this together.
SPEAKER_00:This is where the whole idea of relationship in real medicine comes up for me. That like if you're lazy in a relationship, you're just gonna go your separate ways.
SPEAKER_02:But if you're leaning-or you're just gonna be numbed out and you're gonna enjoy Netflix and sleeping.
SPEAKER_00:A torture. Yeah.
unknown:No, not the Netflix and sleeping.
SPEAKER_00:The Netflix and sleeping is great, but yeah, or you're gonna find yourself in a torturous kind of state. Yeah. Whereas if if you can lean into the very work that you're talking about, you get to activate the this kind of power of accelerated, compounded healing.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, I had Ari on this podcast before we were talking all about sexual healing and how much trauma can be released through conscious sexuality.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:And I kind of feel like it's it's quite similar in terms of conscious relating.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And I I I feel there's there's almost, let's say, two lines of living. There's a kind of a societally taught and impressed upon us way of living that unfortunately speaking accumulates a lot of baggage and trauma. And then there's this other, let's say, conscious way of living, which seems a bit laborious and seems a little bit OTT in terms of the communication side, but in actual fact starts to bring enormous freedom at the same time, too.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um can I go back to something you talked about? Yes, of course. So you said uh techie types, and you were like, and they were really kinky, and that was that was fun and exciting too.
SPEAKER_02:I was wondering if you're gonna go there.
SPEAKER_00:Well, yeah, I'm really curious because um I think a lot of kinks give a lot of people the ick.
SPEAKER_02:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00:Like, ugh.
SPEAKER_02:Or or a lot of un uh what you think is kink, it gives you the ick. Because I was the same way, I may grew up conservative Christian, and I heard even hearing the word kink or BDSN, I'm like, that is screwed up. These people have real issues and they're all going to hell.
SPEAKER_00:And and and I'd I'd love to just yeah, scratch the surface of that and be like, okay, so that's what you used to to think.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I and could you I suppose tell me what you think about kinks now? Because I yeah, I'm really curious in terms of just understanding them. I remember on a podcast earlier there was this fantastic kind of talk into uh extreme fetishes and their infant origins and where they kind of came from. Yeah. And I think they yeah, there's a there's so much in this space that there's there's a naive part of some of us that just shuts it all down. It's like, oh no, no, no. There is actually a mountain of very, very interesting stuff here. So much. And I'd love to explore that with you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I want to do a little bit of foundational groundwork for those listening in. So going back to that erotic erotic blueprints I mentioned earlier, five erotic blueprints, the ways people naturally tend to experience pleasure. So there's energetics, people who really know when somebody walks into a room, they can feel when your hand is covering close to them, right? Like they're aware of the energy around them. A lot of these people are drawn to Tantra. And um on the flip on the shadow side of this, there can be this uh belief or a feeling like this is the right way to experience pleasure. Second one would be um sensuals. Sensuals are anybody who get turned on and experience pleasure through their senses. So if I want to turn a sensual on, I'll put on their favorite playlist and light some candles and we'll do contoured massage touch, you know. And on the shadow side, a sensual, if one thing is off just a little bit, they'll get stuck looping in their brain about it. So they might be like, oh, I forgot to fold the laundry. And now they're just theme of folding the laundry instead of being present in this beautiful moment, right? Where it could be their song comes on that shouldn't be on the playlist for them, right? And they can't, they're like, why is this song? And they're just so gone looping on this. Third is a sexual. Sexuals identify a lot with their genitals, and this is a huge piece of who they are. So if you don't see all of them, that it's just really hard for them. And on the shadow side, you know that you were the sexual because they're saying, Are we gonna have penetration tonight? Did you come? How many times did you come? Right? They're very goal-oriented. Fourth one is kinky, and kinky is anything that's taboo for that person. It could be psychological or a physical, physiological. And so if you grew up in a in a church where it was like, if you stick your tongue in somebody's mouth, then you were definitely going to hell. And you grow up and you have this desire to stick your tongue in somebody's mouth, but you feel so bad about it. This is your taboo. This is the kink, right? And on the flip side, the shadow side of it, this is there's oftentimes a lot of shame associated with this. And finally, there's shape shifters. And shapeshifters are people who can experience pleasure in all four other worlds, and they enjoy all the little tastes of this. But on the shadow side, if they're not getting all of it at one time, they might not experience pleasure. And so it's a really interesting thing to see. What do you naturally gravitate towards? Um, our colleague Jayed developed all of this, and it's a really cool thing. You take a quiz and find out your erotic blueprint type. And then you can also learn how to speak the other languages. So if you're predominantly one or two languages, you can learn how to speak them all and become a shape shifter. So let's go into the kinky one because the kinky one is very controversial in our mainstream society for a lot of folks. Anything that's taboo causes pleasure or brings pleasure to these people. Okay, so what is that like? And then we see books and movies like Fifty Shades of Grey, which are one version of what kink might be, and people just really believe it's like, oh, somebody is, you know, being subjected to this thing and it's painful. And I'm like, it could be. And I think there's conscious kink, and I think there's very toxic kink, and I think there are ways to do something well and ways that are very harmful. But I see that in everything. In everything, every single thing. Like there's a way to have connection and sex and sexual intimacy with your spouse in a way that is healing, and there's ways that it's rape, right? But we don't talk about that very much, even because because maybe you're just saying, maybe you're just like, fine, let it happen, right? Or or believing that this is what they want without talking to them. There are ways to do things in way in consensual, healthy ways, and there are ways to do things that are very dangerous or hurtful. So when it comes to conscious kink, which is what I practice, it is very much how can we have two or more consenting adults come together and have a crap load of fun and and play pretend and explore things. And it's one of the fastest ways of vulnerability that I have ever seen. And it can be awkward and hilarious, it can be deep, it can be uh super meaningful, it can play with old traumas that are hard to play with anywhere else, as long as we are doing so very thoughtfully and carefully. And, you know, it's like, you know, as a kid, you're like, oh, let's play cops and robbers. And it's like, great, where are the handcuffs? Let's let's play. And as long as there's tools that are being used first to set up a space so that it really is this as safe as we can. And remember, it's never sexuality and kink and stuff, it's never 100% safe. We're playing with fire. We're playing with the unknown, we're playing with potential hidden landmines. We want to be gentle with that. So we ask things like, do you have any past traumas that I should be aware of? Do you have any injuries? Like, what do you want to feel through this time together? How much time are we spending together? What does this mean to us? What are our boundaries around how we're playing and how far we're gonna go? Kink can very oftentimes involve clothing on the entire time and zero sexuality. It can just be kinky. Some people are like, oh, I get turned on by by squishing cake in my toes. And I get, I don't know why, but I do. Cool. I'm gonna squish some cake. Like, like, okay, who are we hurting? We're not. So, how do we create these safe spaces with consenting adults and learn how to use the tools to set up the space and then learn how to stay in communication the whole time so that we're doing our best to avoid the landmines and we have the power to stop at any point in time. And we do this thing called aftercare, which I want everyone in the world to start practicing. And if you're not already, which means after any vulnerably or emotionally like beautiful moment with someone, it could just be in conversation. You are taking care of each other. Maybe that means you're getting each other water, maybe it means you're snuggling, maybe it means you're just checking in the next day and saying, How are you feeling? But the conscious kink community has these tools. And I think these tools would be amazing for everyone to be using, whether or not you're kinky, just bring them into your life at home with your normal, your normal love life and or in your normal conversations or how you connect with your kids. And I don't mean that it sounded really weird there, but I mean like having real conversations where you are connecting in a way that feels safe for everyone involved, and it doesn't have it doesn't have to have anything to do with sexuality at all. This can be so healing and powerful. And I can't say I I can't say enough about how much fun it can be when you create that safety to say, screw it, let's like, let's play, let's have a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_00:You touched on something in that. So you touched on so many things within that. I was like, oh my God, thank you for sharing the different um shadows of the erotic blueprints. Like, wow. I there's a part of me I was like, oh, I feel so soon. I'm a shapeshifter, and this is great. Yes. What I what I uh what I love most is that in every uh area of life that we explore, there's wisdom to take. Yes. And and some of the lessons might be front and center in one sphere, but they're hidden away in others.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And it's only in venturing into a space that perhaps is a bit out of our comfort zone. Are a bit out of our norm, we can pick up tools that we can then go, oh, brilliant. I'm gonna apply this to every other aspect of my life. Like, for example, like aftercare, really, really good example. Yeah. That, like, hey, if you're gonna go for a big experience, what about you talk in advance of the things that you need to do? I actually think this is funny, like my my upbringing in Ireland, we all just rank ourselves silly. But little by little we still we started to get quite aware of like, okay, so we're gonna go on a big night. What's our aftercare plan? And it was like, okay, let's make sure we have nothing the next day. McDonald's on speed dial, these snacks, these sweets. Let's pre-pick the DVD because otherwise, like we might spend hours trying to find what this is brilliant, yeah. And uh, and yeah, when you were sharing that, I was like, I uh it's not just for the hangovers, natural fact, it's for every aspect of life. Every aspect, uh, and yeah, there's so so much I think that we can take. Yes, and this is what I love. Like, I love this podcast, I love my work, and I love exploring all different aspects of life, even if it's something that I'm like like there's many times when somebody's like, Hey J want to do this, I'm like, no, but I'm really curious of what I'm gonna learn and what I can perhaps take into other aspects of life, so yes, yeah, let's do it. Yes, and oftentimes I'm pleasantly surprised. Some other times it's like, no, I actually don't want to do that, in which case I've got a solid no for going forward. Right. But that let's say that resistance to trying, yeah, blocks me off from the learnings, blocks me off on that deeper sense of knowing. Yes, and I I I if like if someone's like say, Jay, what's one of your biggest triggers? It's people that hold their lives based on theory rather than experience. It's like I've been told that's how I don't want to do it. It's like, but do you know? No, no, no, no. But I just I it you know, it it's said. And it's like, yeah, how about you figure out for yourself? Yes. And uh and that becomes a big challenge point for me. Like I really, I, I, I, I think Bali for me, it gave me uh it gave me this playground uh from which to like do life again in so many respects. And what I was amazed, I felt like I was a born-again 35-year-old. 38 now, but but I felt like wow, there are so many kind of things that I perhaps judged, um, and that I really didn't appreciate how much I could learn from and how it's really contributed to my life. And that's not to say like it's kind of funny, you do one thing and people might see you doing that one thing and think, oh, that's you. And it's like, no, I just had that experience. I actually recognize that's all actually totally not me, uh-huh, but wow, what I've learned since. And it feels like if we go back to your relational container with Jamin, it feels like you guys have this at the very heart of who you are. It's like, let's ensure we have the openness to explore life and the clear communication to take the learnings and ensure that there's no misimpressions and misunderstandings. Yeah. It's really hard, like you said, but so fruitful.
SPEAKER_02:It's so fruitful. It's so fruitful. I have one more, I have one thing that's like spinning in my head, so I'm gonna share it really quickly. But I was just it ties in with like take the learnings and apply them everywhere. And I was just thinking one more thing that I wanted to share, not just aftercare from Kink, but one thing that has really changed my life and my relationship and our how our dynamic is with our kids and our friends, is in the kink community, I learned we don't ask yes or no questions, you know, just ask like, do you like this? I'm gonna use a scale of one to ten. Like, how pleasurable is this for you on a scale of one to ten? Right. And what would make it more pleasurable? Well, then how do you take that and apply it to real life? And and how can you use this now? And it's like, well, when you're going out to dinner, on a scale of one to ten, how hungry are you? Okay, that gives me a much better sense of time before we need to make sure we're eating, right? And blood sugar levels. Uh huh, on a scale of one to ten, how much do you want tacos tonight? Right? Like, but we can find each other's matching points so much easier and have more voice and more agency just by learning simple tools from other cultures and applying it to our lives now and making it like fun and easy. You're like, where'd you learn that? And kink.
SPEAKER_00:It's like I'm getting distracted now because I just think of such a practical example of the freedom you give yourselves and the way in which you do life uniquely to yourselves. Going for dinner uh with both you and Jamin and ordering food. And Jamin is like, oh yeah, yeah, I want dessert first.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:And I was like, what? He was like, Yeah, you got the dessert first, and then the chips came, and then the chips were mixed with the dessert. And before we knew it, the dinner was like in all different directions. I was like, What the hell is this? And I was like, Oh, this is what it's like doing life with you guys, however you want and uniquely to yourselves. That was a very funny one.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's a great dinner. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:I uh yeah, Ari, you've such wisdom, and I and I kind of feel that like, you know, we we touched on like why would you pick a coach or why would you pick a therapist? And for me, I want to I want to work with people that have made their lives about whatever it is that they do. And I think that's like the the most beautiful thing about you. It's like, oh yeah, relationships are at the absolute center of my life. Yes, and my clients do well as a byproduct. I haven't rearranged my life to suit my my business. Yeah, and my business isn't some random thing that I do that has no correlation to my life. No, everything is in complete alignment here, yeah. And it's fantastic, yeah. So credit to you.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:If um, if so if somebody is like, wow, I I want to chat to that one, um, what's the best way to get in touch with you?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I want to talk with everyone. Like, I'm like, I just want to know about what's going on in your world. Like, I'm so fascinated by humans and their relationships with themselves and others. So um, you can find me at relearnlove.com. And then you can also find me on Instagram at coach Aery Cardosh. Yeah. So please reach out. I want to hear what landed for you today. I want to hear what you're struggling with, and whether it's working with me or directing you to the right resource. It's like just the fact that we have this awareness and we're ready to learn a new way of being, a new way of loving. It's huge. And I want that for the world. So thank you, Jamie.
SPEAKER_00:My absolute pleasure.