The University of Life
The University of Life podcast has become my personal collection of fascinating learnings from the people I meet and experiences I have as I explore life and journey deeper in to the space of business mentoring & life coaching.
The University of Life
The University of Life & Katie Jonzen AKA Path of Peace
What if rock bottom isn’t a failure, but sacred ground?
In this episode, I sit down with Katie, a doula for life transitions, to explore what awakening really looks like when life falls apart. We talk honesty, surrender, and the quiet power of choosing truth over comfort.
Katie opens up about her family’s story with suicidality, the moment she chose life, and how she now helps others move through their own death–rebirth cycles without bypassing the pain. We explore why breakdowns often precede breakthroughs, and how to hold yourself through change without rushing to fix it.
From there, we talk environment, nervous system regulation, and how simple spaciousness can invite the mystery back in. Plans loosen, trust deepens, and life begins to move with you instead of against you.
This one’s real, reflective, and deeply human, a reminder that pain isn’t punishment, it’s initiation.
If you’re in transition, craving clarity, or ready to begin again, this episode will meet you right where you are.
If ever you'd like to connect, please don't hesitate to connect via my website www.jamiewhite.com.
I am always open to feedback, reflections, guest / subject recommendations and anything else that might come up.
Thank you for listening, Jamie x
So, Katie, welcome to the University of Life.
SPEAKER_00:Is that how I start to do that? Yeah, oh yeah. That's my big intro.
SPEAKER_01:It's not like Katie did this and did that and did the next. It's like, hey, welcome.
SPEAKER_00:Good. I like that.
SPEAKER_01:So thank you for indulging me. You're very true to form at your crucifix on your chest.
SPEAKER_00:You've got one on as well.
SPEAKER_01:I do actually. Here we go. Yes. Um I so this podcast for me has always been about tracking my kind of life journey. And uh and it's been a really good excuse to reach out to some fascinating people like you and and tune into their life wisdom, uh, their life lessons and their journey to where they are. Um and kind of on that note, could I ask you like how do you how do you introduce yourself in terms of where you are right now in your life?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Gosh, it's it's always a funny question and it's always a funny answer as well. I would love to be at a point where I can just have one word to say this is what I do. And I actually did settle on one. Um, it's the word doula. I can't remember if I told you much about this, but the term doula is often referred to like a birth doula or even a death doula. And a couple of years ago, I actually got a calling to start supporting women through birth and postpartum. And it helped me realize this is a role that I've played in everything I do because really the doula doula is here to support people through transition.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, that's really the work that I do is support people through transition. Um, it's felt very real in the context of birth and postpartum, but for many years I've been supporting people through we could call it like the death and rebirth, right? That death and rebirth process of spiritual awakening. Um, it's just a space that I feel really familiar with. Um, and in fact, it's a process that I'm going through right now. It's a process that we're always, you know, we often meet that space quite regularly. Um there's a part in the human that doesn't want to, but every few years, or maybe it's every few months, there'll be this moment where you're like, I don't know what's happening now.
SPEAKER_01:Sometimes it feels like every other day.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it can do.
SPEAKER_01:But that's that's interesting for me when you shared that like, yeah, your spiritual awakening happens and then it happens again and again and again. Because I've sometimes heard people speak and they're like, Well, back 10 years ago when I had my spiritual awakening, and it's like, really, that feels a little bit off for me, but it's such a big term, like spiritual awakening. And I I love it. Can I poke you for a definition?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:How would you define a spiritual awakening?
SPEAKER_00:Gosh. I think the word awakening is quite descriptive, right? It's like your eyes open a little bit more, and you realize how you have been asleep to certain things, right? And you just start seeing more clearly. And the ironic thing about this spiritual awakening is it isn't a one-time thing. You open your eyes, and because you think that you're you're seeing so clearly, all of a sudden, you're like and then somehow the dust gathers again. Or a few years down the line, or even a few months, or even a few days down the line, you realize you weren't seeing clearly. So I don't know, it's it's just this it's just this constant humbling, I think.
SPEAKER_01:It's funny for me you zoned in on the word awakening, but the term spiritual at the start of it is an interesting one too. Because like awakening, yeah, it's like where we kind of we wake up to perhaps we we see things a little bit more clearly or we see things with a little bit more depth. But when you put the term spiritual to it, I think that's where perhaps a level of confusion kicks in. It's like, well, what if you were to go for the definition with spiritual conjoint? What's it then? Is it like okay, a particular specific area? Or is it that like our interpretation of the word spiritual is just completely bonkers?
SPEAKER_00:Gosh. I think we we can literally use those two words. It is awakening to the true nature of who we are, which is spiritual beings. We aren't just flesh and bone and personality, there's something beyond that we all have this curiosity to tap into, which we could say is spirit.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So I when I hear the word spiritual at first, I have to take out all the ideas of like church and mass and priests, and for some reason I'm seeing a thoroughfer in my mind as well. You know what the incense?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, right, yes, yes.
SPEAKER_01:But like actually, I I have to remind myself that like my my definition of of spirituality is like your connection with yourself.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so when I hear spiritual awakening, it's like you awaken to a deeper connection with yourself.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And from that place, the world is never the same because you're seeing it from a different standing point.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And you have a different perspective. And it's and that's quite disorientating because suddenly things that you liked you don't like anymore. Uh, things that you don't like, you start growing an affection for, and it's very disorientating in terms of your sense of self. It's like, wait, who am I anymore?
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:That uh, and so your work is in those times of confusion and disorientation where somebody really feels f feels perhaps a little bit lost. Yeah, that's where you come in as somebody to one, hold their hand and then to help speed them up on their path. Because if you get a little bit lost in that in-between period, it can be very disheartening.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. It's like by session two, usually people meet me when they're pretty much near rock bottom. And by session two, they're like, oh my god, I'm at rock bottom. And I'm like, yay. Because it's like this for me, rock bottom is very sacred because it's where you really find your feet and it's where you find this sense of being fully grounded, right? That nothing else is falling apart. And from there you can only go up, right? You can root down super deep, you can clear everything that's there, and you root down, and from there it's like if you declare this is my rock bottom and there's no lower than this, that's a really powerful thing to be able to say, right? And sure there might be other things that happen that are beyond your control, but if you say, like psychologically, I am not going lower than this, this is the lowest it could possibly be. And it's not about like tempting fate, because fate does get tempted, right? It's like, oh, you want to go lower? You can say, like, no, this is this is where I'm really getting humbled. Um, and I actually love that word humble or humility, because it it the root word of that is humus, humus, which is of the earth.
SPEAKER_01:I was like, yummy.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, whipped chickpeas. Um humus, I suppose. H-U-M-U-S, which means of the earth. So to be humbled is to be to be brought back down to earth, really.
SPEAKER_01:Lovely.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I I there's two kind of narratives that come up. One is that like there's nothing more dangerous once uh than someone when they're at rock bottom because they've got nothing more to lose. And that's a part where they really find themselves. Um, but I get this impression that you I get it, I got it the first moment we met that you're like you're you're kind of like one of these no bullshit spiritual types. There's there's some that will go for like, oh yeah, I'm very spiritual. I like my yoga, my smoothies, and my namaste. And then there's others that will voyage through the depths of hell to get to get to the other side.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I I love that you talked about the first kind of chapter of working together. Yeah, it's not to bring somebody relief. In actual fact, it might be just to hold their hand so that they can go that layer deeper.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, because oftentimes I think the relief that we societally look for in life, if it's the painkiller, if it's the soft landing, it actually robs us from the wisdom of the very process that's unfolding.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:And and so you're not there to appease and to say, hey, it's gonna be, you know, I'll I'll make it nicer. It's actually like, hey, it might well get worse, but I'm gonna hold your hand through that process so you can go through it all the quicker and perhaps all the more to take the wisdom that will ultimately speaking stand to you going forward from here. And I love that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I feel like you you see me quite clearly in that. I'm definitely like the the latter description of spiritual person is I think I I've just seen what happens when you try and run away from what's actually happening, or you try and bypass, or you try and take a painkiller, right? Um, numbing ourselves from what we're afraid of isn't really gonna make it go away. And actually, the thing that we want to go away has so much wisdom for us, as you said. So I'm I will quite boldly say to people, I'm not here to rob you of the wisdom that's there for you. And this is why I would call myself more of a guide than a coach. Because I feel like coach gets you from A to B and shows you, like, oh, there's a deep dark valley there, and I built a bridge here for you. And this is amazing. Like, there's incredible coaches out there who have found efficient ways through complicated problems. But I've come to find that these dark valleys are not things to be bypassed. They're really things to be, yeah. Yay, though I walk through the I love it.
SPEAKER_01:I uh the term definitely spiritual bypassing comes up as you're kind of speaking, and the the thought that so many people will be pretending to go on a deep healing journey, but in actual fact it's a very glorified holiday.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:What comes up for you when I kind of note that?
SPEAKER_00:I believe there's so many different paths to what you're meant to experience, right? So if the beginning of that is some shiny fancy spiritual awakening holiday, um, then so be it, right? Truth will come and get you soon. And also it happens layer by layer, right? Um But I'm so sure that there are points where people, if they're really honest with themselves, will start to realize, like, okay, I've got to do some some real looking at myself now. And I think that's where people get stuck, is we get really stuck in this lie that we try and tell ourselves. I think a lot of people have trouble being honest with where they're at and what what they're being called to do, maybe.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um hence actually, so what I'm kind of getting the idea of is your your work a part of it is just holding up a big mirror and saying, look, as much as you want to see yourself as this, coming from third-party perspective, this is actually what I'm seeing. Yeah. And that might be hard, but ultimately speaking, it's going to be really healing because you can live a life of a performance, or you can start actually just getting stuck in and get real.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So there's real honesty. So I think that like I'm just trying to get like a kind of a clearer definition in my mind or something to it. And like if I'm thinking of spiritual bypassing, it's really bullshit.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's like, are you entertaining distraction and bullshit?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And like, what's the cure or the medicine to that? It's it's just brutal honesty. Like you wanna you want to move on from that bypassing period? It's like just look at things more honestly. And if you're struggling to do that, lean on some perhaps some close friends, not the ones that will tell you what you want to hear, but the ones that will confront you with the challenging things that perhaps you're avoiding.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so spiritual bypassing is avoidance.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And a true spiritual journey is honesty, it's rawness, it's vulnerability, it's diving right into the heart of it. Truth.
SPEAKER_00:It's truth. And I think also maybe it's time to shift the language around truth, right? We talk about truth like what you just said, brutal honesty. And it can be to begin with, but you know, I feel so blessed. One of the hugest blessings in my life is the people around me, and they're all powerful mirrors. And what's super interesting is I really receive this as like the deepest love, the deepest attunement to be able to have conversations with friends where they bring up challenging things. And every single time that's happened, it has been such a such an influx of compassion and feeling so deeply seen. And I have a friend of mine who says it's not about calling someone out, it's calling them into greater awareness. And ultimately, the things that feel brutal, the reflections that feel brutal. This is a super, super interesting complex. It's like, how do I find words for it? The parts that feel brutal to see are the very parts of us that need the most love, are the parts of us that are the most tender. And what's ironic is that I've had this with friends of mine or even in sessions where I have this ability to see like the most tender part. And I've learned over the years to hone this. Um, but when it comes up, I literally, it's like my heart just opens with the hugest love because every single time I see a little child between the age of zero and seven, terrified, confused, scared, crying, upset. And all I'm doing is pouring out this love. But because that person has only ever been used to feeling that part as rejected, isolated, pushed away, terrified, locked in a room, they will receive it as that. So it's such tender work. And it's not our job as mirrors or seers or truth tellers to go stabbing into people with the sword of truth, right? I'm saying this from experience. There are certain wounds that really do need that tenderness, but it's also this grounded clarity, right? Something that I would say so clearly to people, it's like, I'm not here to protect you from what you feel about your own reflection. And this has allowed, this has sort of brought me into spaces of being very heavily projected on at certain points, but it's really interesting. A few days or a few months, or maybe even a few years later, people will eventually come back to me and say, that was a really pivotal turning point.
SPEAKER_01:That's it. It's the pivotal turning point.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I had a I had a moment last week and it stands out to me quite like this. Uh one of the things I really like about being over here in Bali is that um people get like, let's say, a new started life, and they get to be more true to themselves in whatever way or shape that is. Um, so anyway, I was chatting with one of my friends and uh and he was like, Jamie, I need to show you something. I had this magnificent week last week, and I I did this thing that I I've wanted to do for so long. And I was like, Okay, cool. And he was like, So he took out his phone and went to show me some photos. And the photos were him cross-dressed in a really sexy shoot.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And I was like, Wow, I like actually quite instinctively, it came out. I'm gonna tell you, I'm struggling now not to say the name, but it was like, oh my god, this is amazing. And thank you for trusting me. Like, thank you so much for trusting me. And then, like, whoa, like what permission you're giving yourself. Like, this is something that other people might hide up, box up, shame. And here you are, one, indulging, two, celebrating, and then three, sharing. I was like, I feel honored. Yeah, and I think you're all the cooler, you're magnificent. I give him a big hug and then I left. And that moment I've sat with, do you know the way there's some of these moments that you recognize like there's quite a bit? Like I recognized my 10-year-old self, who perhaps a friend would have confided in, and I would have been like, oh my god, I need to tell everybody in the class immediately. What a shithead. And then there was the part of me that recognized, like, well, that's gone, thankfully. Uh, but for where I'm at right now, it was like, wow, like one, celebrating you on your journey, two, thank you. Because in doing that, you actually gave me a little bit more permission to embrace what parts of me are still left to be shined upon.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I it yeah, it was, it was, it was really interesting for me that, like, one, our spiritual different journeys and transformations are all uniquely individual and might be completely confusing from one person to the other.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:They're tender and they're sensitive. And I understood why we learned to box them up because I was that reason why some mothers did box themselves up, and I did it to myself so much too. But then how powerful it is to own whatever truth is inside you and enjoy whatever truth is inside you. And in the sharing of that, how powerful it is in terms of inspiration. Wow. He in that moment set me a little bit more free. It also had me feeling so like I was like, wow, I like I see you, I love you. Great for you, and thank you. Because in you doing you, you've given me all the more permission to do me.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's kind of funny. Like, I think sometimes we want to put like a you know, a big cross-up or a holy reverence in terms of what a spiritual transformation is. And to one person, it might literally be, no, they finally came out. Yes, or they're finally indulging in some quirky fantasy or desire, or do you know what? They've just come to terms with their FOMO and they're happy just staying in. Good for them. Yeah, but it's uh yeah, it's it's fascinating seeing this work at play in all its different guises.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, it brings it back to that definition that we sort of landed on when it comes to spiritual awakening. It's like connecting to your true nature and letting it be as it is, right? And it's incredible. Like I love how you described that it gave you this sense of freedom as well. It's like when you see someone really in their authenticity of being who they are, no holds bar, just like this is who I am. I am so happy being who I am. It doesn't even matter what anyone thinks of it anymore. That's freedom.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Right. I could actually feel it. I could feel like he'd opened up his heart in terms of trusting me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I could feel my heart opening up and being like, oh, I see you. I can only imagine the journey you've gone on. Hats off, credit to you. I love that.
SPEAKER_00:Totally. Totally. I think that's like one of the highest levels. I saw a video the other day that said authenticity is the highest vibration, even higher than love.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And I I think we can feel it when somebody is really like authentically them. Um, and it ebbs and flows because as much as authenticity is super powerful, it's precious as well in a way, especially when people are first stepping into it. Sensitive.
SPEAKER_01:It's highly sensitive.
SPEAKER_00:That's it.
SPEAKER_01:And if met at the wrong environment, it can have a really like almost a double negative or a treble negative in terms of locking somebody up.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That's why I always say I've got I feel like a broken record when I say like you're you're the average of the people you surround yourself with most. Nothing shapes you like your environment or the company you keep. Totally. And you will either have an environment that complements your blossoming or complicates it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And people that will either cherish, nurture, and encourage or suppress.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I think I think there's this like when I reminisce in kind of my earlier childhood years, there was this kind of idea that you should get on with everybody. And I I'm more and more being like, no, no, we should be highly selective of who we get on with, highly selective of who we engage with, and and be so much more um discerning.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, because real discernment for me is like self-love, it's self-care. And to be nice to everybody is to be so careless, to to be so yes, careless with how sensitive we truly are. Yeah. Might want to pretend we're so much stronger, but in actual fact, no, we're we're sensitive beings.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_01:Or I am a sensitive soul.
SPEAKER_00:I am a sensitive soul. Can I ask?
SPEAKER_01:Can we get a hands on I um it's quite a path to be on like this. And like, you know, it's it's I'm curious. Uh as I when I gave my story about my friend, I was like, oh my god, what a journey you must have been on to come to this point. And I'm curious for you sitting in front of me and doing doing this work that you do until terms of holding people's hands through these transformations. I I I'm curious. There's a question that comes up to me. What's your earliest memory that gives a clue or kind of pointed you in the direction that you're in right now?
SPEAKER_00:You want to hear it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm dying to hear it.
SPEAKER_00:It's like such a clear memory. I'm five years old and I'm staring into a mirror, and I'm like literally just staring at my own face, like really confused. And and I just remember having this very clear thought of recognizing that this is my face and this is Katie, and she lives in Singapore, and her dad's from England, and her mom's from Singapore, and I had all these, but it was such a clear thing of like Katie, these are just stories about who you are in this world, but there's something beyond that's actually you. I'm five years old, and my mum walks by and she's like, Hey, what what are you what are you thinking? And I'm like, Mummy, if I wasn't here, would would I still be here? I remember this so clearly. This recognition that this is sure, this is Katie, but there's something about the essence of who I am that isn't just this and all of this. Can you imagine how destabilizing that is for a five-year-old who's trying to figure out what reality is? And only in the last sort of what I mean, it probably explains why this put me on such a path of spiritual seeking for a long time. Because I'm like, what is that place? Where did I come from? And why does all of this feel so different to it? Right. I think my whole life I was trying to bridge this gap between what it means to be who I truly know myself as versus being in this human incarnation. So for a long time, a lot of that involved trying to escape the human incarnation because I'm like, this ends very soon. It's very pointless, very painful, and I'm out. And uh yeah, that was many, many, many years of trying to check out.
SPEAKER_01:Of trying to check out?
SPEAKER_00:Trying to check out.
SPEAKER_01:All right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I first tried checking out when I was seven.
SPEAKER_01:Sorry, I have to put this into English. Like you tried to commit suicide at age seven.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:As you do.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, any particular reason? I think it was to do with this kind of confusion, just confusion at life. And as a very sensitive child, I grew up in quite a chaotic household and bless my parents, like I love them so much. But they're just the perfect depiction of what happens when you don't have the tools and trauma that just gets passed down. And um yeah, I think I just from a very young age computed that like life is suffering and it's very painful. And I knew that we're gonna die at the end of it. It was the only thing that I was certain of. Everything else scared me. Death was like, oh thank god, thank God that happens.
SPEAKER_01:You have to tell me, how does a seven-year-old attempt suicide?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, this I mean, I've spent so many years kind of going back over where did that come from? Did I learn that from somewhere? Did I this it wasn't um I think it was just my reaction to how I was experiencing life. It just felt like too much already from a young age.
SPEAKER_01:Um You know the movie Inception?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know the idea that if a question is planted at a deep heart center, it starts to kind of almost ripple out in somebody. And I think, yeah, you you see the impact of that kind of question of recognizing like who are you beyond your body?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And where are you beyond your body?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's quite a bit as you shared that, I remembered a qu a somewhat similar question that came up for me at a somewhat similar time. But it was like they say the quality of your life is in direct correlation to the quality of the questions you'll challenge yourself with. And like, I love your question, it was actually quite nice. Mine was like, I was like, if I chop off my finger, I'm still here. Chopped off my arm, I'm still here. If I had no arms and I have no legs, I was like, where do I reside? Wow, where am I in the body? So we had somewhat similar quest questions. Um, but it is interesting how both of those would almost set you off in a in a line of thought of questioning, you know, what is life? Um and and then, of course, like what's the meaning? Why are you here?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Like, I I know I I kind of like asked in, I was like, how does this have a year old commit to this? But much more interestingly, like for me, is how did you navigate through those challenges? How are you still here today?
SPEAKER_00:Gosh. Divine intervention every single time. Really? Yeah. I mean, at one point I I actually convinced myself that I was immortal because it like it's very bizarre. I sometimes I've I've considered many different dimensions as to what was going on because suicide became a big thing in my whole family, right? In my family unit of four, my parents and myself and my sister, um, at a certain point, all of us had attempted suicide.
SPEAKER_04:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:So this is this is bizarre, and there's definitely something, I don't know whether it could be karmic or some something, right? At one point I was like, are we cursed? Um, but it's very, very interesting to be a family unit where this is a shared experience and something that we've all overcome together, right?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, so this is actually something you collectively as a family can talk about as well.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:Which is very, very powerful. And um, it wasn't always, it was something that was quite hidden or something that weirdly became normalized, right? Because all four of us had known it very well. I think there was just this assumption, and I projected this assumption out to the world that everybody is suicidal. Because I'm like, how can you not be? And I think really the the thing that that kept that so alive in my life was there was such a deep part of me that knew that life is actually glorious, right? That life is beautiful. And maybe this challenges our definition of glorious and beautiful, but there was such a disjoint between the depth of suffering and actually the gloriousness of life. And I couldn't, I couldn't, like my brain couldn't compute the two, right? Um what ended this? You might have seen on my stories. In fact, a week ago today would be my five-year anniversary from surviving suicide five years ago. And I remember going into this particular time. At that point, I probably couldn't count how many times I'd attempted suicide, but I remember really saying, these were the two things that kind of in retrospect kind of freaked me out about it. I was super calm, and I remember saying, This is the last time. From that side of it, I was going, I'm not coming back. This is it, like this is it. And I remember having a conversation with what I thought was God at the time, and maybe it was, I I really don't know, but yeah. And I remember waking up in hospital, and it took me a good three days to really accept that I was actually still alive because I was like, Oh, I went somewhere and I I was not meant to come back, and somehow I've come back. I thought I was in my afterlife for a little bit, but I remember a huge thing was like I had to choose life. And talking about it now, it kind of gives me this idea that as a soul, before we come into this incarnation, we do actually choose life. And I think it's really important on the human level that we recognize we chose life. Because from that decision, I don't know, maybe it just has this ripple effect of how we decide to live our life. And it's not about being in control of everything, but it's like if we know that we chose this, we do show up in a different way, right? Rather than feeling that life is happening to us. Um sometimes people have said this, oh, life is actually happening for me. I offer a further step, which is life is happening with you. Like you and life at a certain point decided to link up and go, let's do this.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And I think that's really what shifted things for me. Is I've really looked at life and I was like, I want to do this. I want to whatever, whatever comes my way, I want to do this. And I and I want to want every moment of it. Whatever that moment is bringing to me, I want to want it. I don't want to push it away anymore. I don't want to play this like black and white fighting game with life anymore. And um, this is not a path that I would recommend for everyone. And at the same time, I really believe that we are going through these death and rebirth moments, you know, several times through our life. Um, so yeah, you don't have to go as far as I did. But I think that was my journey in this life, and I'm really grateful for it because it's given me such a depth of choosing life and this sense of actually being fully alive.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Even in the painful moments.
SPEAKER_01:There's that cliche saying in the kind of coaching world, it's like you can only serve people as deeply as you've gone yourself. And it it kind of puts a bit of weight on where you started the conversation by saying um how you'll really help help people up from rock bottom.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And by the sense of it, you've actually navigated through rock bottom to the other side, had a bit of a chat, and said, No, let's come back and go. At it again. Um, and your space is really to help. I I always feel kind of the best healers will will show up as those that they wish they had in their life five or ten years ago. Yeah. And it feels like perhaps the very person that you're showing up with now is the very person you were looking for five or ten years ago to support you from there.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And it's a nice reminder actually. Because sometimes there is this belief that I'm too deep. And there's so many other facets to me, right? Like I'm a big old silly billy as well.
SPEAKER_01:But like I think that's a huge part of a spiritual journey. Certainly for me, I like one of the more powerful moments for me was uh it was losing myself in an ecstatic dance. So it was like 10 a.m. on a random Sunday in the midst of like a collection of all sorts of people, and in the midst of it, I fell into this beautiful, free-like, trance-like state of dancing. And I I felt that like it's like with every move, I could almost feel trauma, I could feel disease, I could feel misunderstanding rinse itself from my body, and I was move by move, beat by beat, coming back to this wild kid-like self. I was the young, like the young kid, and God bless my parents. I would like they'd be having a very fancy dinner party, and suddenly I'd like come down the chimney naked or something. I was like, Well, how did you even get up there? And what the hell are you doing? Or else constantly running through almost like Bart Simpson running through the front garden.
SPEAKER_04:You do give me Bart Simpson once as a child.
SPEAKER_01:And I um and there's something about like the let's say the freedom and the lack of judgment and just the enjoyment that's there for us in young years, and this wildness and this freeness came to me in that moment, and it was so blissful. It was it was it was so nice, and it was really pure, and it was like, hey, one second, this is pure on a dance floor, you're not like sat in some monastery and God knows where having eaten bloody rice for 40 days and 40 nights or something. No, this is like you can have be having your spiritual transformation or your awakening in the middle of a dance floor.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, or like I I love there was a kind of a there was a phase I went through. Um I had uh dated this fantastic holistic sexologist who kind of introduced me to the world of Tantra. And there was a really interesting narrative that kind of came through that as I evolved through that world, which was that like your healing journey doesn't need to be traumatic, it can be pleasureful, pleasurable. You know, you you can there's an awful lot of healing that goes on in looking somebody presently in the eyes and letting a smile cross come across your face, letting your guard down, uh letting years of stress go and just dancing freely. Um I think, yeah, I think perhaps this space can get quite one-dimensional. If there's an idea that you need to do the work, and it's like, R, you might actually really want to do the work. R hell, this could be really fun to enjoy.
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:And I I love like if I come back to what you shared, it's like by the sounds of it, you went through the depths of hell. I'll need to say, hey, one second, there could be another slant to this, and this actually could be quite enjoyable.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes, this is exactly it. I I had to get really honest with myself. And little caveat, I believe that all of us have been through our own version of the depths of hell, right? Like we're not here to compare what somebody else's looks like because what I've been through could be a walk in a park for somebody who grew up in a war zone, right? Um, so it's always remembering that we've all been through our relative hell. Um, but I had to get really honest with myself of like, I remember one thing that I used to feel is like I don't know what I'm supposed to do anymore. I've done all the work, like I'd been in therapy, I'd been on so like I had done everything that I thought I'd use all the resources that I could get my hands on. Even suicide done. Literally tried everything. I'm like, what do you want from me? And I realized, like, oh my gosh, I'm taking this journey so heavily. And it was actually really gifted to me. This is actually how I work with my clients now is this reframe, I call it an organic reframe of doing the work, right? I just spent a lot of time in nature at certain points of my dark journey. And I realized how nature is this great big awesome thing, right? And it's like if you ever are losing a connection to God or you're questioning whether God exists, just go and sit in nature for a little bit, anywhere, by an ocean, by a river, in a tree, on a patch of grass, like just sit there and contemplate, and so much will come to you. And I just remember feeling like, Katie, why are you digging at yourself like you're some project that needs to be finished, or that you're broken and you need to patch yourself up? Like this image came to me of this discovering an old secret garden and then just going about the work of restoring it. And that's the way I see this journey now. It's like now it's more maintenance, right? Like I'm just picking weeds or watering the flowers or just saying hi to bunnies. At one point there was a lot of heavy lifting, sure. But it's not always like that, right? And you don't see gardeners like in the garden, oh, you know, like being really heavy about their gardening work. There's a joy to it, there's a there's a purposefulness to it.
SPEAKER_01:I love this is like the feminine means masculine. And like there's such truth in that that it's like, hey, you can enjoy your journey, yeah, it can be blissful. Whereas for me, I thought so much, it needs to be heavy lifting. I used to make this joke that I'm like, oh, I'll try everything twice, and I like to jump in the deep end until I realized very quickly jumping in the deep end is suddenly can be awful, and um and actually, yeah, like you know, that that that idea, you should do the work is like actually if you put a different pace to it and you took a level of pressure off your shoulders, it's not something that you have to do, it's something you'd love to do. Like, and that I kind of go back to my little moment of like being on that dance floor of enjoying that bliss, full freedom that had you know, there's no work in that. That was actually just removing all the thoughts, all the judgment, all the weights, all the you know, what if I'm seeing like this? And I look so awkward and I feel so odd. It's like or I just let it how about you don't think those thoughts and just let yourself be for a little while, yeah. Uh so yeah, it's like I remember asking somebody who certainly saw themselves as a bit of a guru type in this world, and I was like, What it's what is it all about? Like, why do we do this? And it's like ultimately it's about setting ourselves free. And and so to to have a spiritual awakening is to set yourself free to a degree, and you can have an endless uh series of them, yeah. And and what that freedom looks is is embodying truth, yeah, coming back to your true self, your essence. Yes. Um, I have this idea, this like the greatest, you know, what is life all about? Life for me certainly feels like it's about one figuring out who you are, yeah, beyond the distraction of those that you surround yourself with or your environment and all that conditioning. It's just figuring out who you are, and then building the skill and confidence to embody that. Um, which is quite it's quite a hard thing to let like I'm a messer and I'm bold, and to let build the level of communication and understanding and balance and safety to enable to allow for that. That's been like 10 years work. Um and then the third part is to is to well, sorry, in embodying that is the sharing of it and the inspiration and the freedom and the permission that that gives others to follow suit. I think that's what life is really all about. I think that's the biggest purpose that we can have.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I completely agree. And something I've been saying to my clients recently is like being who you truly are is actually the most natural thing that you could possibly do. And the most important you are, and the most important. And and you're right, like it does take this level of work, I suppose, in that embodiment. But I I really think the work is in all the, as you say, the unraveling, right? Letting go of these thoughts. But the actual being of yourself, that's like you don't even have to think about it. Like, that's you. Like it's the most natural thing ever. I mean, what does it feel like when you are fully you?
SPEAKER_01:I'm kind of getting this idea that like you start off as literally a seed.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And you start to sprout. And you know those, those, those oddballs. I think they're over in Japan, and they they they they put this frame over watermelons where they grow like square watermelons and square apples and stuff like that. And it's kind of like life is like that. It puts these series of structures and frames that unfortunately you find yourself not growing your natural path, but growing through these frames and these containers. And on a certain point, you know, like initially that was all you knew. So, of course, like, oh yeah, I grew up I grew, I filled this space and I grew that weird, awkward way. But at a certain point, you start to see that it's not serving you, and you can almost step back from the plant and look at how awkward it is. And I kind of feel it's like one by one taking off these weird frames and this odd path.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And when you take it all off, it's like suddenly you just collapse. It's like you're all disjointed and all over the place. But then little by little you rebalance and you reintegrate and you get to grow back as a much stronger, yeah, much more um sturdy plant-like being. It's kind of like my little idea of what this looks like in practice.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, welcome to my world of the secret garden. Like this is, I just think nature speaks in the most perfect analogies to the answers, you know, the questions that our souls are asking of like, what is this all about? You look at what plants do, you look at what nature does, and you'll definitely find your answers. And this is where the death and rebirth process is genuinely so helpful. And I almost giggle a little bit that in the human psyche, the first thing we want to do is run away. Because if we put it into that analogy, the death and rebirth process is the taking away of those frames that have actually kept us growing in these awkward ways, right? It's liberation. And so for me, when I see these moments come up, I'm like, in a way, there's a part of me that's like, yes.
SPEAKER_01:That's so funny, right? Because in that analogy where you take away all the frames, that is the moment of liberation. But at the same time, it's the moment of collapse. Yes. You take away the supports, the frames, the everything.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I think that's a really sad thing about a lot of people when they're going through this moment of awakening, this liberation, it's that they can't see it.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:In actual fact, it's like, my world is crumbling. And I look at that and I'm like, oh, well done. Like, are you joking? And I'm like, no, well done. This is great. You're moving on the right path. And they're like, How dare you insult me? How dare you belittle my moment like that? And it's like, no, see through this, see past this, see beyond. I am I think that's why, yeah, that like I if I remember my moments in an earlier stage as going through this, I felt so isolated, I felt so alone, I felt so out of sorts and and really so lost.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm I'm curious, and I kind of want to lean into your expertise because you know, I've been there, you've been there, no doubt so many people listening on have been there, I might be there. What do you say to that person in that moment? Say I am that potential client who's like, my life is falling apart. Where what is like the first port of call?
SPEAKER_00:It's just to validate it, to acknowledge it, not to amplify it, but certainly not to try and make it feel better, but to really let that person feel how much it's falling apart, actually.
SPEAKER_01:Because in that moment, if I'm remembering back, so many people would have said to me, Oh, but Jamie, there's there's kids starving over in Africa. And I was like, What? Like that's such a saying at home. Like, no matter what problem you have, there's always somebody that has a bigger problem. And it's like, and so what I'm hearing from you is like that that narrative for me that triggers me now. Like that really annoys me. Whereas what you're saying is like, yeah, actually connect with somebody and actually share, oh, your life is falling apart. This is huge. That that's huge, that's a lot.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, and so when you're not kind of fighting for attention of like, hey, I'm going through a lot, and what I okay about the kids in Africa, but what about me?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so the first step is actually, yeah, yeah. What about you? Actually, let's get into that.
SPEAKER_00:I used to have this voice. I didn't have it in terms of somebody else saying it to me, but I would always have this of like, Katie, things could be so much worse. There are children starving in Africa, there are people, babies being born into war zones. There's people dying of not having clean water, like get over yourself, right? But that ultimately didn't help. And I'll give an example. I had a gosh, one of my most powerful one-to-one clients. Um, she actually first came to me with a whole list of disclaimers saying, I have worked with world-renowned psychologists, I have worked with this therapist, that therapist, this person, blah, blah, blah. People with huge, you know, huge, long list of certifications. Um and basically between the words of what she was saying, she was saying, I'm too much. They've told me that I'm I can't be helped, that my problems are too much. Something like this, right? And it was almost this like little test of like, can you handle me? And I said, Look, I don't have a long laundry list of certifications. I chose not to pursue the path of clinical psychology, even though I studied it at university and I'm very grateful for it. But I said, I trust that we've been brought together and I'm gonna do my best to honor you in this container. So we signed up for this container, and I said, Look, I can't make any promises, there's no guarantees with my work, but I will take you through what I know and I'll be here with you. And the thing that this woman needed the most was just to be validated. And I can see from a psychological framework that it could have been edgy to validate what it was that she'd been through because there's such a fine line between amplifying it and kind of exacerbating the trauma and the victim story, right? But there's a really, really kind of sweet, there's this sweet spot, and you have to be so attuned. These people need to be validated when they're in that space of, oh my God, my whole world is falling apart and everything that I've been through is this, that, and the other. We are so quick to try and snap people out of their victim story, because you're right, like that is the thing that can kill us or keep us so trapped. But we do have to have a moment of fully validating it. And I often think this like in order for us, true freedom is when we're no longer living from the story, right? That's ultimately what it is. But in order to fully close the book, you have to have read it. You need to know your story in order to put it down and no longer live from it. Because if you don't know it, you're probably still living from it, you're probably still living in it. But I can tell the story of my life or what it's what it's been up till now. And I know I'm not living it anymore because I can tell it as a complete story.
SPEAKER_01:Did you ever watch Patch Adams?
SPEAKER_03:No.
SPEAKER_01:It's Robin Williams. It's beautiful. It's kind of rebelling against the medical system. It's a true based on a true story, and really what he shows is how powerful it is to meet people where they're at, to tune into exactly their stories the way in which you shared. And as you were talking, I was seeing all those moments of that movie play out where it just shows how powerful it is to connect, yeah, and in that to bring humor to the process as well. Because obviously, a lot of like a lot of conventional therapy, a lot of conventional medicine, medicinal care, it's very clinical. Yeah, it's very impersonal. And I mean, but the personal, I mean, but the charm, you bought the humor, you bought the lightness, the playfulness, and and actually started to really do studies into backing how impacting that is. Um, so actually, like first and foremost, not guilting somebody for having whatever feelings they have, but actually validating those feelings and then getting into the trenches with somebody and helping uh helping navigate forward from there.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, it's like somebody coming to you and I'm like, I'm lost in a maze. And it's like, no, you're not, you're just in your head, you're still in the living room. No, I am lost in a maze. It's like, oh, we're lost in a maze. Well, why don't I come down here side by side and why don't we find our way out together? And in actual fact, along the way, let's have a bit of fun too.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, exactly. We're in a maze.
SPEAKER_01:Brilliant. So I'm a big believer that a lot of this work is way overcomplicated. And some of those types with all those fancy letters after their names, they really like to justify the years of study that they've done. When in actual fact, like I believe true expertise is not in complicating matters, but in actual fact, finding the simplest. And the the best teachers, they don't try and complicate their lessons, they try and find them in the most easily shareable, digestible fashions. And so, you know, that for me is hugely powerful. It's like you want to find a help of a friend that's struggling, you know, stop trying to distract them from their struggles and actually connect with them, yeah, like validate their struggles. Because for however fake or ridiculous they may seem to you, if they're talking to you about them, they're real to them. Yes. And if they don't have to actually like blow them up all the more for you to recognize them, and in actual fact, you can recognize them in their smallest sense, you'll catch them early.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And at that point, if you can get into their story with them, you can help them find their way out.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, and perhaps that may mean it goes to an uncomfortable place, going back to what you shared at the start, where like perhaps somebody does need to go to a knife edge or a cliffhanger moment where it forces a new path forward for them. And if you you holding their hand will help them get there all the quicker.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Great.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I think there's also this shying away from discomfort. And like I know that like that, what is that, that medical um principle of do no harm. And it's like, well, an actual fact, like sometimes there's medicine in the harm. And yeah, I like certainly from what you were sharing earlier, this idea of it's sometimes at those breaking moments where it's only then that you make the decision to choose a different path.
SPEAKER_00:Totally. And and pain as well, I feel, is is such a medicine. And as a collective, where we're at as a society is we are a very, very pain-averse society. So kind of bringing back some of what I was seeing when I started supporting women through birth was and kind of coupling it with my own experience of seeing really the suffering that comes from people trying to escape pain or the consequences or the kind of there's almost a price to pay when you try and bypass the pain. You know, you can get this quick hit of not feeling the pain, but afterwards there's stuff that you have to kind of catch up with. And what I came to realize, you know, you scrape your knee, right? And your knee starts to hurt. What that says is it's giving you this focal point to be present with. And I mean, you can see I have a lot of tattoos, right? I have an interesting relationship with pain. I think I went through a bit of a study of what pain really is. And I remember with this tattoo specifically, I noticed that any moment I tried to look away or distract myself from the pain, if I tried to eat a snack, if I tried to watch a video, even if I tried to read a book, the pain got 10 times worse. And I had to be with it fully. I had to watch it, I had to watch the blood coming out, I had to watch like every moment of it. And I noticed that if I was there fully present with it, it softened. If I tried to distance myself from it, it got way more intense. So, what does this say about our relationship to pain? First of all, what does it say pain is here to do? Pain is saying be with me, be present, be here. I need your full attention, I need all of you here because something's going on. I need you to be on hand to be able to do something, right? But when we're away from it, it needs to scream louder because you know what I mean? Yeah, it needs to be heard.
SPEAKER_01:Lots comes up comes up for me when you share this. I I this has actually been a bit of a practice with mine of mine more recently. I um I connected with uh some fantastic Russian friends who this is part of their daily practice.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:They will um tie them up and tie themselves up in some fantastic yogic kind of um poses.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And they'll hold like so they'll hold themselves in huge discomfort and pain, and then they'll hold their breath in enormous levels of pain as well. And they might do this on nail boards as well. And the idea is that they deeply uh rebalance themselves as and they bring themselves from their head into their body, into their connection with themselves and their capacity to feel. And in doing this on a regular basis, it helps them tune into their bodies all the more and heighten their sensitivities around pain.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And yes, this whole whole idea that if you avoid pain, it will scream louder because it needs to be felt. Yes. However, if you will give it the attention it needs, one, not only will you feel less pain, but two, you'll sooner get to the wisdom on the other side.
SPEAKER_04:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:What is it? There's a great line, the uh the pain will go when it's done teaching you all that you need to know.
SPEAKER_00:There we go. There we go. And it's also about expanding capacity, right? And bringing these two pieces together of like it doesn't have to be painful all the time, because there are moments when the medicine is joy and freedom and dancing, right? And then there are other moments when the medicine is to be fully in it. And so I think one maybe the bridge or the kind of umbrella would be attunement, right? And honesty, be honest with where you're at, right? If you honestly need to go out and go for a dance, that's what you need. But if you need to sit and be with yourself, that's what you need. And there's so many other things, right? But when you're attuned to what you actually need, it's very, very clear. And I think that the freedom really for me, for me, my work is all about like freedom and peace within, right? Freedom to be able to give myself what I need and know that I'm not going to run away and I'm not going to abandon myself in my own time of need because I'm too scared to feel pain or too afraid to feel joy. Like knowing that that is no longer part of me, I feel free.
SPEAKER_01:Do you think there's a correlation? I I I I do. Just putting that one out there between the quantities of pain that you can feel and as a result of that, on the opposite side of that, the quantities of happiness. Totally relief, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Spectrum, right? The pain-pleasure spectrum.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I think that as well. I think I think massively that like if we shy away from the pain in our life, it numbs us from the happiness that's there as well.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:And it's that contrast that actually is like the spice of life.
SPEAKER_00:Totally.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I remember back in my one spiritual awakening in 2016 or whatever it was. Um, I remember I was living in Brighton at the time, and I remember seeing this big clock tower and a big, like um, I suppose it was like a pendulum swing, right? And I remember watching this thing swing from left to right. And I just remember having this moment of like, Katie, you're trying to cling to one end of the pendulum swing. You're so afraid of swinging to the other side. But the more you cling to this one side, the stronger you're going to swing over to the other side, right? And it was, I was in kind of the thralls of, I was in a really abusive relationship at the time, and I was naturally very depressed, and I was so afraid of feeling actually how depressed I was. So I would be chasing all these things of making myself feel better, and I could feel myself clinging, like desperately, to be like, I need to feel good, I need to feel happy. And I saw this pendulum swinging, and I thought, the more you cling to these things that are making you happy, you're just gonna swing so hard the other way, and it's coming for you, and it did come for me. But I really realized, like, yeah, clinging to either, and then you can also be clinging too far to the other side, right? And I can also admit that I've been a bit of a bit of a masochist in my life as well, where I'll be so convinced that things are painful, so then I cling to the pain because I'm afraid to feel the joy.
SPEAKER_01:So I see this that like people will cling to their journey and their work, and they'll cling to complexity if we bring up that earlier example. It's like, well, all the simplicity is there for you. The same way for a lot of types that are living in misery, it's like with the slightest contrast in perspective here, so much of this misery could be metabolized into pure joy.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I I do think it's incredibly powerful powerful when we recognize how how much we can change things in an instance.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But this this note, this pendulum uh insight that you shared, I I wholly and totally believe that too. I I think our lives move in ups and downs, and the severity of those ups and downs is very much dick is very much kind of dictated by our attachment to and the surrendering and the trust of the process of life brings with it an enormous ease and takes away a huge weight and a huge stress. Yes. And there's this lovely note I kind of get that you know, you either you're kind of you're in the sea and you're either getting absolutely bashed by waves as they come in and out and in and out, or you get up on a surfboard and you start surfing. Yeah, and you surf through the highs and the lows.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And because I I think there's real there is real value. Like there's value in the highs, enjoy them. There's value in the lows too. Yeah. I've been trying to can enjoy my um my contrasting times.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Well, it's it's interesting when when we're at a point where we can see the perspective of the value in both the highs and the lows, it invites you into seeing, like, okay, where are you actually perceiving this from? Because if you, the essence of I, right, what we're talking about at the beginning, like, who am I really? This thing that's kind of beyond all of this or outside of all of this, if you have the capacity to see both the up and the down, that suggests that there's a part of you that's beyond all of that, right? And going with that ocean analogy, yeah, you can either be munched up in the waves or you can get a on a surfboard and ride them, or you can be in the ocean itself.
SPEAKER_01:Katie, I was hoping you could we were about to say, Oh, you can be the ocean. You can be the ocean. It's like Bruce Lee here.
SPEAKER_00:You can be the ocean, which regardless of what the waves are doing, the ocean itself is is vast and still. And you know, the I think this is really this for me is is that peace.
SPEAKER_01:It's like a different dimension.
SPEAKER_00:It's a different dimension. It's also the the the dimension of something that's actually more real.
SPEAKER_01:So for me, with every spiritual awakening, I'd say it's that you see lens through a different dimension or you see a different dimension in life.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And as you progress on that journey, you start to look back and go, oh my god, I was living in a big bubble, a bubble of naivety.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um amazed how how unbelievably healing and constructive just having the voc vocabulary around certain things can be. That simple development, on my analogy, is actually very powerful. You know, you can either get crushed by the waves or you can surf the waves. Actually, there's a deeper one to it, or you can be the waves, you can be the sea.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That like which way do we want to see the world? Which way do we want to experience the world?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Like I like that note, you know, life is happening to me, the victim. Life is happening for me. Opportunity. Um, our life is happening with me, companionship, creative company. Yeah, yeah, it's like a co-creative journey.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Can I ask, where is the power of all of this?
SPEAKER_03:God.
SPEAKER_00:Next.
SPEAKER_01:Let me pull you back there. How does one wield said power? Uh, because I like I I there's real, obviously, there's practical knowledge, there's real, there's real, there's real insight in what you've been sharing and what you've touched into and what's gone on in this conversation. But where where do you really like step into a different dimension altogether for yourself? I'm kind of getting the idea. It's like, don't deflect from your circumstances, accept your circumstances, don't run away from your journey. Actually, dive in all the more. Don't shy away from the edges. Oftentimes it's there that you'll get the most wisdom. And taking that beyond, where does it go further from there?
SPEAKER_00:Gosh. You know, I think it really comes up to letting all of this open you up even more. And this idea of be the ocean, right? Like true freedom is when you can just let life be as it is, as it is, without needing to change. So it's like this recognition that everything that challenges you and pushes you to the edges is really just opening you up to even more freedom to experience life, right? Without needing to change it to make yourself feel more comfortable.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, okay. Because so when I gave those examples, really what I was actually sharing is it's resistance, resistance to what's happening to you, you know, resistance to the edges. Yeah. And what you're saying is actually like what goes beyond that is trust. It's have faith. It's don't think that you know better. Actually surrender to the idea that there's more to this than you know. And if you stop resisting it, you stop trying to manipulate, and you actually have trust and you actually have faith, life will start to unfold in ways far beyond your imagination.
SPEAKER_03:Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And you know if life were to go completely to plan, even if it's like the wildest imagination that you could dream up for your life, that is still incredibly limited compared to what life could be if you were to kind of let go of your plans. And I'm not here to say that plans are bad. I think it's beautiful to have goals and a kind of trajectory or some kind of direction that you're heading in. I think it's very important to know what values are driving you. Um, but to be open at the same time to the mystery. Right. Because I think back now, if my plans had really gone my way, I'd be living a very, very limited life compared to what's happening now. None of this was part of my plan.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, there's something, there's something that I'm kind of that's coming up for me as you're sharing that, which is a reflection on a lot of the clients that I've worked with. And it's like those that were probably the most stuck when they came to me were the most sure of themselves. The most sure of life. Oh no, Jamie, it's because of this and it's because of this. And I know, I like I know every eventuality in every different direction. They're the most stuck. And when things really start to move, I think it's when people play into that very narrative that you just shared, this surrender of maybe I don't know. Maybe there's a better way.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And who knows where that can come from. An actual fact, every day could be a surprise. I think when people have overschedulized themselves and they know exactly what they're going to do that day, that week, that month, it's amazing how quickly they numb themselves out, bore themselves, and demoralize themselves. But when they start clearing their schedule, allowing a bit of space for spontaneity, surprise, mystery in their days, that's when magic starts to show up. And that's where I really do believe, yeah, a whole life can change in an instant, yeah. In a couple of interesting moments, but not if you schedule too much, and not if you are too sure of your path and too set on your ways.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I actually schedule, schedule spaciousness. Like I schedule like long, wide open spaces because I had a friend of mine who's like, I expect miracles because I make space for them, right? And and the mystery needs space. When we're like, no, at 1 p.m. I'm doing this, and oftentimes the people, and I'm speaking to myself a few years ago, the people who have everything scheduled down to a T are the people who feel the most unsafe. And it's very valid, right? We're not here to be like, fuck your unsafety, be free. We have to titrate safety, right?
SPEAKER_01:And distrust.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, that's it. A lot of people who don't trust life have have reasons not to, right? Life has probably been really mean to them, right? Um, and it's not true. It's it's these kind of distorted lenses through which we've received life. But if somebody is in that place where they are overscheduling themselves and they need this level of certainty, yes, the end goal is that they let go of the need for certainty because they realize that, you know, it's just keeping them safe, blah, blah, blah. But there's also that level of attunement that's required where actually it's so ironic. But we kind of have to titrate deeper layers of safety, slowly taking the boxes away. Even though we can look back and point and say, that's exactly where you were trapped and not free, and that's exactly what was causing your suffering. It does have to be in this kind of like layer-by-layer approach, because otherwise it's too much for the nervous system, right?
SPEAKER_01:Um I used to take such pride in my schedule. I used to uh until there was a great line that was shared with me, it was like, Jamie, you're prioritizing your schedule when in fact you should be scheduling your priorities only.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:And I I thought that was so good. Yeah. But I I I reflect back on the pride and like how organized I was. And in actual fact, I recognized that that Jamie distrusted himself. Yes. And um and felt unsafe. And and little by little, as I started to clear my schedule and free myself, the resistance was what if I lose myself? What if I get out of sorts? It was distrust. Yeah. And as I leaned into that, I learned to trust myself. It took trust to create freedom.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Yes, totally. I think actually this is one of the tenets of the spiritual awakening is we our locus of safety starts to shift or it evolves or expands. Where maybe to begin with, and I shared this as well of like my safety was originally found in the certainty I could create for myself, right? Knowing that this is what my week was scheduled to be, and that's exactly what would happen. I felt safe in that. And for a while, that was actually very, very healing for me to know that life could actually go my way for a little bit. And life was like, okay, I'll let you play this game of me going your way.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Until I felt safe enough. And then it started shifting a little bit. It's like, oh, hang on, wait, wait, wait, wait. My plans don't go my way. There's a little bit of a freak out, but soon enough, as I kind of just let myself open up and realize maybe there's somewhere else that I can be sourcing safety in, that I would have these moments outside of what was meant to happen in my schedule. And actually something really nice happened. And I'd be like, wait, what? Amazing things can happen when I open up a little bit of space. So it's like, it's almost like life kind of tempting you to be like, hey, I get that you need to feel safe, but maybe the safety outside of your schedule.
SPEAKER_01:Could you take that a step further and say that life is always serving you? It always wants what's best for you. It's your resistance that gets in the way.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:And of course, there are moments when, yeah, we retreat, we go back into our comfort zone to rebuild our batteries, but at a certain point, life will start to, it'll start to serve a negative. It's like, you know, coming home. It's so lovely, it's so comforting until it's not. Or eating certain meals are so good and so tasty until they're not.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And certain habits and certain things they serve to the point that they don't.
SPEAKER_05:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:And life is serving you in those moments. It's not something to be frustrated with. It's actually an encouraging little move to say, hey, there's more for you in this life.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And it's our resistance to it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And that gets in the way.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. And one thing that can help to soften that resistance is kind of this deeper definition of who you are, right? If you start recognizing yourself as life itself, and then you realize life is life's one imperative is to be alive. And you, being life itself, of course, life is supporting you to, and not only does life want to be alive, life wants to proliferate. Life wants to expand. Like you look at nature, it's so unbelievably abundant, right? And when you recognize that that's what you're made of as well, you start to realize that it's not that life is just, I love this idea, like life is serving you, but taking you out of the picture or getting a clearer picture of who you actually are, life is serving life. Right. Because I think sometimes we can have this resistance to like, who am I for life to serve me? I'm just a blah blah blah. It's okay. Well, take yourself out of it, realize that you are part of creation. Yeah, I think that's been really healing.
SPEAKER_01:It's a bit of an odd one where we see ourselves as individual. Like it's and and resist the obviousness that we're quite a collective being. Like if I I like to think of us almost as like one grand DNA stream. And and so, like they say unconsciously in me, I will gravitate towards the mate that will complement my DNA stream best. And that in the two of us coming together, it will create the strongest strand going forward from there, the highest probability of life success going forward. And so, you know, that DNA strand is actually pushing me towards my attraction, my partner, likewise vice versa. And the two of us come together and then we create a baby. And that baby has an element of the life of the father and the life of the mother. And and there's let's say little trials and experiments in terms of okay, well, let's let's try and create this one as best as possible. If there's another one, it's okay, well, we learnt a little bit there, so let's go again. And but in actual fact, as one is living, we have elements of our mother, our father, our brothers or sisters, and that's playing out as big as we want to see it, but there's parts and elements of us in absolutely everybody else as well. I like to think that our DNA is playing out a hundred different lives, a thousand, a million different lives simultaneously, and trying to figure out the best route forward from there. And we see like little clues of this in life with what is it that um sympathy pains. You know, if you're close to somebody, you feel their pain at certain points, yeah, and then instinctive kind of thoughts and feelings, like we've had that relation. If you think a partner's cheating, suddenly it's like so we have these connections. Um, and yeah, I I I more and more I I'm trying to override this idea of this individual self and actually challenge myself to be like, no, Jamie, you are you are your your father's living through you, your mother's living through you, your family's living through you, and extend it out way further from there. And I think it's only when there's a recollection, recognition of that there's an enormous um, there's enormous power that comes from that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Like, do you ever find you have learnings in you and you're like, wait, I didn't pick that up in a book? And I didn't and you chat to somebody, perhaps in your family, and they're like, Oh yeah, I remember chatting, like looking at that, it's like, are there shared learnings in that regard as well? I think there are.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. Like we are a result of all of our ancestors, right? And I remember I always used to, and I still do it, this visualization of being a tree and these roots growing down into earth. What comes up for you when when you get told to visualize that?
SPEAKER_01:When I get told to visualize that I am a tree with roots growing down into earth, well, I'm a Taurus, so I'm very earthy. Okay. So the idea of like oof, connecting more with earth. Yeah, if I had my way, I would bury myself in like a mud up to my neck just for fun and relaxing and be like, what is Jamie up to? It's like actually that's a different place right now. So you don't even need to like tell me to visualize it before you even said it. I was there.
unknown:Perfect.
SPEAKER_00:Well, when I used to visualize, I love that by the way. When I used to visualize that, I would imagine myself as this solitary tree with these roots that went all the way down into the core of the earth. And I felt this beautiful connection. And actually, how that's evolved over time. And it literally was like I would have this whole image of the whole earth and then just one tree connected to the core of it, which is very, very powerful. But I realized it was this individualism, right? And when I really, really sunk into okay, what would it physically look like for tree roots to be in the earth? There's all these other root networks, right? There's mycelium, there's all these other plants. There's so much going on. And in the earth, like in the actual soil, all the trees of a forest are deeply interconnected, right? We may express as individual trees. And I think this is the thing about being human, is it's just all one paradox after another. We are individuals where our authenticity can never be replicated, and at the same time, we're part of this one collective being of humanity, right? One thing that absolutely messes me up, like this messes me up. Look at your fingerprint. Look at your fingerprint. It's so intricate, and it will never be repeated ever again. And you think of all the billions of humans that have existed and been created and lived and died, and never once has a fingerprint been replicated. That's crazy. So we we are individual, we are, we're incredibly unique, and at the same time, we are part of this one species and this one being of life itself, expressing in all these different ways. That's just crazy.
SPEAKER_01:When you share that, there's a kind of a thought that's coming up for me. Yeah, it's like that I recognize I can tune into my head and I can think. So I have this operating system with my mind.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. And I can tune more into my body.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I can feel. And one of the really nice things I'm recognizing is that the more I tune into feeling, the more I tune out of thinking.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And I think let's say we have our individual operating systems. But like the more we use them, the more we familiarize, the more comfortable, the more capacity we grow in those areas. So if I delve deep into my intellectual self, great, my brain is fantastic. But chances are I'm a bit numb physically. But the more I practice tuning into myself and tuning into my feelings, the more sensitivity I grow. The more that gut instinct starts to fire up, the more pleasure and pain comes into my life. And then on the other side, it's the more we can tune into that collective wisdom as well. And I think there's that collective consciousness, that collective capacity to feel, to like empathize with another, to, but not just to like, oh, I feel your pain, but also to tune into somebody's wisdom and tune into somebody's healings. I'm really interested in the term co-regulation, the idea that when you can sit with another, you can co-regulate, you can calm your nervous systems together, but I think it goes far beyond that. I think there's a huge sharing of wisdom that goes on. Um yeah, it's kind of the things you find yourself scrolling into and delving deep on a random Tuesday night, but that's that's kind of my lovely exploration at the moment, which if I bring it back to this subject, because I'm quite conscious I have pulled this podcast all over the place in the last 20 minutes. But this is a spiritual journey.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I like I'm convinced that there's really two paths. There's the distracted path of like tuning into Netflix, if it's your entertainment, if it's whatever's going on in the external world, which has its merits and has its drawbacks. And then there's the internal journey, and there's the discovery of all the power we have inside of us, of which I think we are the least explored as a species. I think there is such a world of wonder and discovery and mystery to be unearthed inside of us. And I think that's what a spiritual journey is all about. It's making time to sit with yourself, making time to really look honestly and truthfully in the mirror.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And not not thinking, not putting on some performance and not perceiving some performance, but actually really delving deep into who you are, figuring out what that is, learning to embody it, share it, giving others permission, them doing the same to you and going back deeper again. And cycle by cycle, our spiritual awakening by spiritual awakening, learning to go deeper and deeper and unearthing the let's call it magic that's inside of us.
SPEAKER_00:It's endless, like it's it's infinite. You know, I think there's there's something in us that that has this drive to explore it. And when it's not turned inward, we seek these things externally. And everybody knows this by now. There's there's a there's an upper limit to the things that can be experienced externally.
SPEAKER_01:I love the way you're like, everybody knows this.
SPEAKER_00:And I'm like, still figuring that one out. Well, here you go. Now you know it. Thank you. But there is an upper limit to the things that can be experienced externally. Um, this is not to say don't bother experiencing them. I think we we need to allow a certain degree of that happening, right? Just so that we can again, it always comes down to making a choice, right? But when you realize the value of turning inward is so much more fruitful and so much more of an exploration. You know, for me, there's very little that I seek outwardly anymore. And this, I can only say this from having allowed myself the time to seek outwardly and have all these big experiences. But I realize like I don't just want to have peak experience after peak experience anymore. It's lovely to have a collection of fun stories to tell, but it's not really doing so much for me anymore, or perhaps my need for it had been satisfied, so I'm no longer growing from it and choosing to have this exploration turned inward. It's like there's so little on the external that I wouldn't say that it's that I'm not interested in anything. I'm fascinated by everything that's going on, but there's such a deep feeling of being resourced from within and actually from something beyond within me, if that makes sense. Something so deep within me that it feels like it's beyond.
SPEAKER_01:I am a firm believer that the like the power that we have within is absolutely unlimited. I look at guys like Joe Dispense, who are kind of waking people up to this, but yeah, even the more simple forms look at placebo. When people feel they're getting the medicine that they need, they create the change that they need internally. And oftentimes, like placebo outperforms the trials of whatever drug it is that they're trying to put out.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I I can't help but think that there's almost this global distraction at play. It's like a an orchestrated, a masterfully orchestrated distraction from that internal power.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And and the thing that keeps me going, like the card at the end of the stick, is that like I do find it hard. Like, I find it hard to sit with myself. I find it hard to cut out cut out the distractions. But every time I really do sit with myself, there's always some little thing that I scratch from it that I'm like, oh my God, I never saw things that way, or I never knew I could do this. And that wonder is that peak experience. It trumps those external notes and moments.
SPEAKER_00:Um it's not to say that it's one or the other, right? You don't just then turn away from all external things and you only turn inward. Maybe that's part of the journey to really calibrate to like this being the reality and having that as a baseline of where you live from, but then to go and do all the external things, to watch Netflix, to do this, do that, do that, from a place of really being centered within, right? Not trying to seek that sense of fulfillment and wholeness in that thing outside of you, but to live from that place of inner wholeness, inner completion, and then to experience those things from there. It's a completely different way of living. You know, this is where some of the, you know, where you can truly experience the joy of simplicity, right? Feeling sunshine on your skin, going for a swim in the sea, having a beautiful conversation with someone. These are all beautiful things on their own. But when you're truly coming to them from this place of inner resource, it I don't know, it, I can't even put words to it, but you could imagine it hits completely differently, right?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I find almost again what we talked about in these contrast, contrasting kind of ideas is that the deeper I learn to go on myself, the more present I can enjoy external things, the less like negatively impacting experiences I need, but but the more I can enjoy the simple things. And the simple things actually become much bigger things. Kind of like the more I tune into myself and learn to really feel what's going on, the more I can then feel being by the sea, the breeze, the sun, the water. Um, but I can also then feel perhaps the things that were like were nice for me before, which is like go out, have the pints, like run around town. And I recognize actually I can feel the good that came from those, but I can feel the negative. And I can now get more of the good from much simpler, less negatively impacting external moments. That discernment has come. Yeah, which is quite interesting.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And I feel the more centered you are within, um, it's also just like this this internal regulation where you become less stimulated, right? We we live in a society where we need so much to get us to feel something, right? So I shared this with you the other day. One thing I often say to my clients when they first come to me is, are you ready for peace? Because it's extremely boring to begin with, especially when we're used to this chaos and you know having to have these hard hits to feel something because our receptors are totally burnt out, you know, they've been blasted with so much information, so much sensation that we are like in many ways very, very numb. And we're so used to things like being very kind of loud on the senses. So when we're first getting into this place of inner stillness, you're gonna be bored as fuck. You're gonna want to, you know. And we have to titrate this. If you can only sit still for one minute, then let it be one minute to start with, you know, and then go from there.
SPEAKER_01:Um there's a funny study along those lines, which is quite cool. That uh they put these men in the room, men and women, but men were the funniest of the of the bunch. And they were there for half an hour, and there was just not no distractions, no anything, no phones, no nothing, but just a button saying electric shock. And I think over 70% of the men would rather shock themselves than experience 30 minutes of stillness and calm. Women was less, 20 odd, I think like 25% or something.
SPEAKER_00:We are the superior spirit.
SPEAKER_01:It's uh yeah, I I I it probably is is to that note that whatever life it is that you're desiring is often just a couple of different decisions away. But it's why are you avoiding those decisions? We all know, for example, say that our phones are distracting us and social media is consuming us, but we still do it. And it takes a real level of, let's say, discipline and consciousness to resist those temptations. But what's on the other side is the really interesting one.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um I think it's when we when we place more value on what's on the other side, right? Rather than thinking, oh, I have to turn within and be still. Like if you don't see the value in it, don't do it. Continue scrolling on social media, can continue doing all your other stuff. If that's serving you, do that. But there really comes a point, and this is by the grace of God, that you start really being shown the beauty and you choose to value that, right? Like I choose to value peace. I choose to value moments of being quiet, moments of having absolutely nothing to do but just be. This is such a privilege.
SPEAKER_01:Katie, I'm getting a kind of a rounded perspective of you from this conversation that really, you know, oftentimes with the people that you're helping and just people in general in their times of crisis, it's not actually a time of crisis, it's a time of liberation. And for whatever people think they might need to avoid, it's actually on the other side of that, that the very wisdom that they're looking for is there. And and how valuable end those moments where people sometimes think they need to isolate themselves. In actual fact, if they could only just ask for the right care and help, that moment might stand to them forevermore. And and what that looks like at practicality when it comes to life is actually quite a lot of simplicity. It's seeing things more clearly, it's enjoying moments more fully, it's not needing to overindulge because you're so numb, but in actual fact, waking yourself up so that simple things that may have perhaps gone unnoticed in lives before are actually highly stimulating.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And with the space that comes from the freedom you create, you get the opportunity to dive deep into yourself. And what comes from that is this fantastic, almost compounding effect or multiplier that shows up almost magically in your life. Yeah, it's kind of different to the like the let's say the conventional idea of like what is a spiritual journey, but it's really, and like what is the simplicity of a spiritual journey? It's perhaps missled or mispresented, but when I kind of frame it the way in which I just noted to you there, it feels much more appealing, feels much more, much more exciting. I think perhaps that's like one of the real key reasons I wanted to sit down with you is I wanted to understand this explosion of appreciation for let's say new age spirituality. And I think my lens was looking at it from the from a different perspective. But when I see it in this line and I see the spiritual journey in this respect, it feels a hell of a lot more appealing. Um I recognize where it's been almost purposefully confused in certain stances, yeah. But it feels much more appealing to me now.
SPEAKER_00:I I think the the fruit of going on this spiritual path, it's not that there's this goal to be reached at the end of it. You know, like it is the journey itself, and it's this journey of coming into just needing less to feel full, you know, to feel like, wow, I'm really here. And you look at children, I think they're like the greatest teachers, you know, they are so full of appreciation and wonder. They literally receive life through this lens of wonder. I think that is our original sight that we were programmed with, you know, in God's design, we were programmed with these eyes to receive life as this wonderful journey, right? And I think that's what the spiritual path is, at least for me. And at least that's what it's gifted me is more of an ability to receive life as this wonderful thing in tiny, tiny things, little flowers, you know. Like the other day I was in Uluatu and there was this like pavement, and right in the middle of it, there was this tiny tuft of grass growing out of it. And I was like, How have you done that? Like this, this I don't don't ask me, but I I was so amazed by this little tuft of grass. And I was like, for me, that's kind of what life is about, you know.
SPEAKER_01:That moment that you shared, it's like, yeah, seeing seeing a little tuft of grass working its way to concrete. And even going back a little bit further, where you talked about how much there is to learn from kids. And like if I take it back to like my moments dancing on a on a an ecstatic dance and clearing those layers, coming back to my essence, coming back to my childlike self. I do uh fully appreciate what you're saying, that there's actually, I think, so much more that we we think we're so wise and we think we're self-experienced, and it's like, yeah, and the experience is actually a setback in some regards. You can learn so much from the youth. And a natural fact, there's wisdom to take in nature in every moment, and to see that little tuft of grass winking its way through the concrete. And for however strong that road was built, yeah, nature will find its course. And for you, you can find your course. I think like when I'm hearing everything that you're sharing, it's like there's there's a dip there's an easier path. You know, you might think all this struggle, all this hardship, all this challenge is here to challenge you. When an actual fact it's there to serve you. Yeah, and and so much of this work, so much of this like dive into spirituality is just reframing our perspective in a way in which serves us all the better.
SPEAKER_00:It's all in the name of liberation, right? All of it, even the hard parts. And in the Bible it says, unless you become like little children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. So it's literally written there to have fun, to play, to express, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And societally so, out of sorts. Like, I I I think so many of us were kind of told to conform, we're taught to normalize, to numb. And so to actually to follow that path, to return to that youthful side and that playful side is a rebellious act.
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Um, but it's one I think once you get a sniff of it, once you get a taste of it, I don't think there's anything else you can do. I think it's almost impossible to to conform um after you've enjoyed uh the fun that's there for you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the freedom of being who you are.
SPEAKER_01:I can talk to you for ages, but I have to cut this fuck out. Can I ask Katie if somebody wanted to reach out to you, if somebody wanted to connect to you, if somebody just felt a connection from what you shared, what's the best way to connect with you?
SPEAKER_00:On Instagram, um known as Path of Peace. Um, that's always the best way. I'm working on having my website redone at the moment. So eventually that will be pathofeace.com later this year, but and how Instagram.
SPEAKER_01:Lovely. And you're welcoming if somebody does reach out and say, Hey, I felt a connection. Is it okay? That's okay.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Cool.
SPEAKER_00:Slide in.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. Thank you for indulging me on this. Thank you for sharing as you have, and uh, and hopefully. People gotta get to share again soon.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you so much, Jamie. I really appreciated this.
SPEAKER_01:Pleasure.